24 fingers: Hi, Stephen, how are you?

24 fingers: Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to another episode of 24 Questions. I’m Emma Goode, founder of Essex digital marketing agency 24 fingers, and I’m absolutely delighted to be joined today by the wonderful Jill Poet of the Organisation of Responsible Businesses. Jill is someone I often refer to as the person I want to be when I grow up in business, so this is going to be a fantastic conversation.

Jill Poet: Thank you for that lovely introduction, Emma. It’s a real pleasure to be here with you today, and I have to say, I think you’re already pretty grown up and doing incredibly well in business.

24 fingers: That’s very kind of you to say. So Jill, before we dive into our 24 questions, tell us a bit about yourself and your background.

Jill Poet: Well, my background is in management accountancy, which I did for about 40 years working with micro and small businesses. I’m passionate about small businesses, and whilst I don’t do much accountancy work now apart from a few exceptions, I still handle my own company accounts and have one little payroll client that I’ve been doing forever.

My main business now is the Organisation for Responsible Businesses, which is my absolute passion. I also have another website business called Healthy Life Essex which is packed with information helping people live happier, healthier, greener lifestyles.

24 fingers: That sounds fascinating. Tell me more about the Organisation for Responsible Businesses.

Jill Poet: The Organisation for Responsible Businesses, or ORB for short since it’s a bit of a mouthful, is almost the same concept as Healthy Life Essex but for businesses. We’re encouraging small businesses from sole proprietors upwards to care about people, care about the environment, be happier, do all the right things, but still be profitable and work efficiently.

We operate as a membership organisation. It’s now a member-owned not-for-profit national organisation, and we offer both membership and certification options. I’m very proud of what we’ve built.

24 fingers: That’s incredible, and I’m proud to be a member myself. Now let’s kick off with our first question – what’s your favourite word?

Jill Poet: Authentic, I think.

24 fingers: Perfect. What gets you up in the morning?

Jill Poet: Well, to be clear, I’ll be 75 next month, and one of my concessions to being older is that getting up early isn’t necessarily one of them. I love what I do and I’m passionate about it, but unless I’ve got something really important on, I wake up when I wake up, potter about, have coffee and juice in bed, and read for a little while. It’s quite civilised really. Then I’m at my desk, driving this business forward that we’ve built.

24 fingers: I love that approach to work-life balance. What do you honestly think of social media?

Jill Poet: I like LinkedIn. You can criticise it, but it’s still very honest and business-orientated for the most part. You do get some silly things on there, but mostly I quite like it.

I’m not personally interested in all the other platforms, and what social media is doing on a personal basis for a lot of people, I think it’s just horrendous. I steer clear of it. I think it’s particularly worrying for young people – there needs to be so much more control.

24 fingers: I completely agree with you on that. Are you a Kindle or physical books person?

Jill Poet: Both. We actually have quite an extensive library in our lounge, so Mike and I both love hard copy books. But of course, I love the convenience of the Kindle as well, the fact that you can take it anywhere – holidays, train journeys, whatever. So yes, definitely both.

24 fingers: I’m not quite sure what industry to put you in, but what would you say is the biggest challenge facing your industry?

Jill Poet: That’s an interesting question because I don’t neatly fit into any industry. Whenever I get those tick boxes that say “select your sector,” it’s nearly always “other.”

Some people might say I’m in the sustainability industry, and I tend to avoid being put into that because we’re not consultants. But even more so, what bothers me is that when most people talk about sustainability, they’re talking about environmental sustainability. Actually, the environment is a big part of what we talk about – it’s one of the important pillars – but it’s just one of the pillars.

I think we need to take a very holistic approach to sustainability, and of course, sustainability in terms of business starts with sustaining the business for the long term.

24 fingers: What did you want to be when you were growing up?

Jill Poet: I can remember having those questions, and it was quite odd because, being that much older, it was very much expected that a girl would get happily married and have kids. Now I did get married and have kids very early, and yet when anyone asked me that when I was younger, I didn’t define myself by that. I always just used to say I just wanted to be happy.

24 fingers: That’s beautiful. What led you to your current career then?

Jill Poet: It was a progression. As I said, my background was working with small businesses on the profitability, accountability, and governance side of things, but I was very passionate about small businesses.

We’d launched Healthy Life Essex and converted that to a community interest company. I was going to a lot of meetings in the early 2000s where there was lots of talk about corporate social responsibility, but it was all very much corporate-focused.

With my small business passion, I kept thinking, “What about small businesses. They need to be doing this as well.” And no one was talking about that. When we looked around, there wasn’t anyone addressing it, so we thought we’d better plug that gap in the market.

24 fingers: That’s fantastic forward-thinking. Your favourite word was authentic – can you use it in a sentence please?

Jill Poet: I do wish more good businesses would talk about the good things that they’re doing in their marketing, on social media, on their websites. Obviously, they always need to be authentic about it, but it’s important to share that goodness.

24 fingers: And now can you make it rhyme?

Jill Poet: Well, if I did, it would be something like “If you don’t use authentic in your marketing, then you must be a bit of a…” and I’ll leave it to the audience to work that one out.

24 fingers: I love it. What advice would you give to your younger self?

Jill Poet: I probably would advise myself not to have got married as young as I did. I quite liked being a wife and a mother, but I just made a very bad decision in the person I married as my younger self. I don’t think I really understood what love was all about. I thought you fell in love, got married and had children – I didn’t realise it was a bit more complicated than that.

24 fingers: We can discuss our divorce stories later. What’s the best thing anyone’s ever done for you?

Jill Poet: I’ve been on this planet for nearly 75 years, and lots of people have done lots of lovely things. Nice things can be something big, or it can be something like just a touch on the arm to say “I’ve got your back.”

Over the years there have been so many nice things, big things and little things, and I can’t think of any one thing that I would say is the nicest thing anyone’s ever done.

24 fingers: I think you’re very generous as a person, Jill. You always want to help somebody or go that extra mile to support and encourage, so I’m sure the universe is giving you that back – you deserve it. What’s been your career-defining moment? You might not have had it yet.

Jill Poet: Perhaps I haven’t yet, because when we launched, we were so way ahead of the field, and it was just after the crash. Getting that traction when we’d also got financial challenges because of the situation at the time was quite difficult.

There have been some defining moments – acknowledgements, awards, I’ve published a book – but I still think the major defining moment is yet to come in terms of national recognition. The membership and certification in particular – we have a certification that’s a great alternative to B Corp for anyone who knows what B Corp is. Getting that national acknowledgement would be the main thing I’d love to see.

24 fingers: No doubt you’ll achieve it. If you won a big award of some kind, who would you thank? I think I might know the answer to this.

Jill Poet: Actually, it would be my husband Mike for always being there and supporting me. We very nearly pulled the plug on the business in the very early days because of the financial situation. I didn’t have to tell him much about it – I didn’t tell him until a few months later – but I knew that however bad it was, even if we had to sell the house and live in a caravan, he would support me. Whatever has happened, he’s always been supportive.

24 fingers: That’s wonderful. Can you tell us your time-saver of the day please?

Jill Poet: It’s probably totally different to what most people will say, but for me, my time-saver is making sure that I go through and clear my emails throughout the day. Not just at two particular times, but not looking at it every single second either.

I find that if I don’t keep my email inbox cleared, then I get a backlog, I miss things, I get frustrated. So for me, it’s important that I do that, whereas other people think “don’t look at your emails.”

24 fingers: Email is definitely a beast that has to be tamed. Where do you see your industry in 24 months?

Jill Poet: Well, it depends how we define our industry, doesn’t it. If I think about it in terms of holistic sustainability, I would like to think it’s getting more traction.

It’s challenging because the last year or two has been going in the wrong direction because of external factors. All I can say is that those of us in this sector just need to keep driving it and keep positive.

24 fingers: Where were you 24 months ago?

Jill Poet: I’m not sure that a great deal has changed actually in terms of the last two years. Three years ago there was a big change, and that was when we gifted the company to the membership.

24 fingers: That’s such an interesting decision. Tell us more about that.

Jill Poet: Mike and I launched it in 2010 as a normal limited company, but we wanted to protect the legacy of the company. So in 2022, actually on my 72nd birthday, we gifted the company to the membership.

We incorporated a new company limited by guarantee with not-for-profit articles, transferred the existing company assets across, and then gifted it to the membership. That was to protect the legacy of the company and ensure that focus on small businesses in particular.

Our articles of association even have some processes built in that we need to retain to protect the integrity of the membership. We probably could have a lot more members and a lot more money coming in if we removed those, but it would have no real value. That goes back to authenticity and core values.

24 fingers: If you could have a 24-minute Zoom chat with anybody living or dead, who would it be?

Jill Poet: I think it would be Jamie Oliver, which might sound a really strange choice, but I find him fascinating. I was thinking David Attenborough first, which would be phenomenal, but actually Jamie is so much fun and the way he picks up these causes he’s clearly absolutely passionate about and throws his all into them. I just think it would be a lot of fun, and I love his approach.

24 fingers: And he’s from Essex.

Jill Poet: And he’s from Essex, yes, and I like a lot of his recipes too.

24 fingers: What’s one word you’d like people to describe you with?

Jill Poet: Tenacious, I think, probably.

24 fingers: Perfect. What’s one quote that defines your work ethic?

Jill Poet: I suppose “a tenacious leader in the field.”

24 fingers: What’s your favourite social media campaign. I know you’re not huge on social media, but is there something that’s struck you?

Jill Poet: I don’t really look at social media campaigns. I’m on LinkedIn, but in terms of the other platforms, I just don’t go on them.

One campaign that’s been important though is the whole “pay in 30 days” campaign. There’s just been an announcement from the government that they’re going to do something about it finally and put more powers in place. Whatever type of small business you have, whatever sector, it’s just so important that we get proper payment terms in place.

24 fingers: I absolutely agree with that. What’s been the best part of your day?

Jill Poet: I can’t tell you that we’re still recording.

24 fingers: Hahaha. Finally, is there anything you’d like to plug?

Jill Poet: I think the thing I’d say is we have a little five minute questionnaire that anyone can do. There’s no cost, no commitment. We call it “perfectly imperfect” because in five minutes you can’t cover everything. But it’s a thought-provoking thing – you get immediate feedback responses about how you operate your business, and there’ll be something within that that makes you go “Oh, I didn’t think about that.”

24 fingers: What’s the link for anybody wanting to do that?

Jill Poet: It’s questionnaire.orbuk.org.uk – that’s O-R-B-U-K dot org dot uk.

24 fingers: I’ll put that in the comments. Jill, thank you so much. It’s been wonderful to catch up – always inspiring. I can’t wait to see what happens next. I know this isn’t the end for ORB, this is just the middle. It’s a fantastic organisation, one that I’m proud to be part of. Thank you so much for your time.

Jill Poet: Thank you Emma, it’s been an absolute pleasure to be here, and it’s great that you’re part of our organisation. Thank you.

24 fingers: Good afternoon and good morning. I’m Emma Goode, founder of digital marketing agency 24 fingers, and today I’m joined by the wonderful Pat Finn of Rubicon Results who’s kindly offered to answer our 24 questions. Pat, it’s great to have you here.

Pat: It’s so nice to talk to you anytime, and especially if we get a chance to do something that’s recorded together. Thank you for the opportunity.

24 fingers: My pleasure. I know all about you, but for the friends that haven’t met you yet, can you give me a 24-second round-up of who you are and what you do?

Pat: Well, what I do now is I’m a coach. I’ve been a coach for 20 years where I’ve worked for a company called Landmark Worldwide, where I led a programme called The Forum, which is a three-day transformational weekend.

Since the pandemic, I’ve brought back a coaching programme that I have. It’s an international programme where people play on a mastermind team and shoot for amazing results in 10 weeks. Between the team and the private coaching, people are altering their lives, literally shifting to a whole new level in life.

24 fingers: I can definitely vouch for that. I’ve been on multiple of your programmes and it truly is something very special, and we’re going to learn more today. So I’m going to dive in. Let’s start with what’s your favourite word?

Pat: My favourite word is possibility. No question. I love that concept of living from possibility.

Anything’s possible in life. When you come from that perspective, you don’t always produce the result, but you definitely come from a perspective of being positive and knowing that any problem can be worked out in life.

24 fingers: I love that. And what gets you up in the morning?

Pat: Well, my job gets me up. I have a schedule that works for me. Other people might think I’m crazy. Because I’m in Los Angeles and I have clients in London, in Spain, in Poland, in Sweden, I schedule calls early. My first calls are at 5:15 a.m. my time and then I do another call at 6 a.m. Then from 6:30 to 8:30, I take off, I go to the gym, I come back, I meditate, and then I start the rest of my day.

It’s an amazing way to start the day. First of all, it gets me up early, which I love doing. But if I didn’t have that call schedule, there’s a chance I’d talk myself into sleeping longer and hitting snooze one more time. So I have to get up. And I get up because I love what I do. I love having a chance to create possibility with people.

24 fingers: Inspirational. What do you truly, honestly think of social media?

Pat: It’s one of those things that I should be good at. I have a background on television. I’ve been a TV weatherman. I’ve been a game show presenter here in the US for years. I’m used to being on camera. You would think that, given the message that I have seems to resonate with a lot of people, you would think there’d be some connection between my delivering my message and my ability to deliver it and having social media success. But I suck at it, if I can use that word. I’ve gotten a little better at it, having a chance to interact with you and work with you. But the work that it takes to do it right, I don’t put into it. And then I make myself wrong for it: well, why don’t you just do what Emma says? If you did that, then you’d have that success.

Most areas of my life, I am totally satisfied with,. Social media, it’s like, all right, sooner or later I’ll figure it out.

24 fingers: So books or Kindle? I think I know the answer to this, but which do you prefer?

Pat: Books, and I’m not proud to say a lot of times, it’s audiobooks lately because I’m on the go and I live in LA, and just to get anywhere, it’s about an hour, so I’m in the car or at the gym every morning. So I listen to a lot of audiobooks.

And I love just the habit of physical books. Before I go to bed, if I’m reading something that’s transformational or spiritual, it just puts me in that right tone to go to sleep. So books over Kindle, but unfortunately a lot of audiobooks.

24 fingers: So you’re in the coaching industry. What do you think the biggest challenge to your industry is right now? I’ve got some opinions on this, but it’d be great to hear what you think.

Pat: Well, one of the things is the market is flooded with a lot of people who call themselves coaches and some of them are really good. I mean, they know how to empower people and put people in the right direction.

But some people who are coaches decided to do it because their friends would always ask them for advice and they thought they were good at advice. And coaching, at least in the world that I come from, is way deeper and more expansive than that. It’s really getting up and under what are the limiting beliefs somebody has, having the ability to meet them at the vibration or the emotional level they’re at right now, how to lift people up and be able to hold them to account in a way that they don’t reject or resent you. To be able to create a system to hold them to account to do what they said they wanted to do in the first place.

So that’s a long answer, but I think the biggest challenge in the industry is to be able to rise above the clutter of a lot of people saying they’re coaches.

24 fingers: I was going to say something related. It’s super important that you find the right coach that’s going to help you move forward. I think Rubicon is a unique set-up and certainly my experience is very different than like you say somebody who’s going to give you advice but not perhaps share how to implement it and hold you accountable and give you the opportunity to be within the community when you’re doing it. So we’re on the same page there.

24 fingers: What did you want to be when you were growing up?

Pat: I wasn’t sure exactly what, but I knew it was something where I’d be speaking to people. When I was in first grade, what I asked for for Christmas was a little recorder. Back then we didn’t even have cassettes. They were these little mini reels of tape, like a mini recorder.

I would sit in my bedroom and I would read the newspaper out loud, thinking I’ll become a news anchor, become something on television. And eventually I did become a news anchor and was on television.

At the time I wasn’t clear what that meant, like the next step for me was to be on the radio, which I did get a chance to do as I got out of high school. But I knew it was something where I would have a chance to speak to people and it turned out that way.

There’s a great book by Michael Beckwith, Life Visioning. In the book, he talks about looking for the vision of your life; how do you find the purpose of your life? And he says one of the ways to do it is to look at what you wanted to be when you grew up.

It may not be a direct correlation to your purpose in life, but you could start to see a thread if you look over what you wanted to be when you were younger and along the way in life. Because as you get older, then you get all these mixed messages from parents who think you should be a certain way and society thinks this is the best thing to do.

But if you can get back to that pure moment when you were younger, what was the thing that lit you up? So for me, it’s always fun to look back at those times. I can just remember sitting on my bed with the newspaper, not even understanding all the words because I was just in first grade, but recording myself and listening to it back.

24 fingers: I often refer to you as the Bradley Walsh of America. I don’t know if you know who Bradley Walsh is, but you’re like the loveable inspring version of Bradley Walsh and anybody watching this in the comments will know what I mean by that. What led you to your current career?

Pat: My current career is, I guess the thing that led me to my past two careers, my past career and this current career, was that I was a TV weatherman in San Francisco and enjoying it, but knowing that there was something more than that. A friend of mine invited me to do this thing called The Forum, the three-day weekend.

At the time, I was the weekend weatherman in San Francisco. So I only got three weekends off a year. So if I was going to give up one of them to do this programme, it’d better be good.

So I went in kind of arrogantly saying, listen, if I’m doing this within six months, I’m going to be on national television and within six months, I’m going to own a radio station because when I worked in radio, I always thought I could do it better than they were doing it.

And I did The Forum, and within six months, I put together investors and bought a radio station. Within six months, I was on national television, hosting a game show here in the United States called The Joker’s Wild.

So for me, that was life-changing, not alone the fact that I created a relationship with my parents. When I grew up, my parents were alcoholics. There was a lot of drama in the household. I moved out when I was 17.

And they had since gotten sober, but I still kind of kept them at a distance and The Forum showed me how to have true forgiveness and connection. I ended up with this most amazing relationship with my parents for the rest of their life.

So for me, it was just like, okay, this is earth-shaking, this is extraordinary. So I started, even though I was on national television having the radio station, to train with Landmark. 

For years, I led their introductions to their programmes and eventually led The Forum. So The Forum, I guess, is the thing that led to me becoming a game show host and the chance then to become a coach.

24 fingers: You’re so modest, but I have to say that you’ve impacted over 50,000 people’s lives through your coaching, haven’t you? Probably more now.

Pat: I get goosebumps sometimes when I think about what it is that I get a chance to do. I think people have a sense that they want something different in their life. There’s almost like a sense in their heart knowing there’s something beyond the way things are right now and I’m just a conduit for that.

I just get a chance to help people see how great they really are and here are some of the steps to take you in that right direction. It’s really great to know that it made that kind of difference.

24 fingers: You’re doing it. Now, your favourite word is possibility. Can you use it in a sentence, please?

Pat: I love living from possibility, or I love helping people create possibility in their lives.

24 fingers: But how can you make it rhyme with something? Make possibility rhyme.

Pat: Let’s see, when you have possibility, you have agility, or when you have possibility, you love taking on responsibility. Or infinity.

I used to have a TV production company. We produced TV shows for a dozen different networks, and we called it Infinity Productions, and it was I-N-F-I-N-N-I-T-Y. At the time, we thought it was really clever.

24 fingers: Boom boom. What advice would you give to your younger self?

Pat: That’s an interesting question, because in one sense, I live my life with no regrets. I’ve made many mistakes over the course of my life, but I look back at them from a perspective of not that there’s something wrong with me, but what could I learn from that to shift who I am now?

So in one sense, my life is perfect, the good and the bad of it. I think it would be to have more fun along the way, and I’m sure a lot of people say that, but just looking back, there were times where I was just stressed and with my nose to the grindstone… I’m going to just get this next thing done.

And I would, but what I’m learning now, and what we teach in Rubicon, is there’s actually this balance between this inner sense of peace and calm and knowing things are going to turn out, your connection to the universe or a higher power or whatever. When you can come from there and be in action, that’s the most effective way to produce results in life.

So I would remind myself to take time, start to meditate earlier, start to enjoy life more.

24 fingers: You already get up at five. You can’t get up much earlier. What’s been the best thing anyone’s ever done for you?

Pat: People have been really generous with me in life. My friend Bob Woody, that would be one of the best things. When I said I was going to be on national television, I got a chance to audition for a game show we have here in the US called Wheel of Fortune. The host of it was leaving the daytime version of it. I didn’t get it, by the way.

But on the set, there’s this moment where as you’re doing audition, they say, look into the camera, say your name, and who’s your agent. And in that moment, it was like, I’m just this weatherman from San Francisco, I don’t have an agent.

So I said to Vanna (Vanna White was the person turning the letters and one of the hosts of Wheel of Fortune) “Hey, Vanna, who’s your agent?” And she yells out “Richard Lawrence.” And I go, “My name is Pat Finn and my agent is Richard Lawrence.” Because I figured if I got it, he’d of course take the percentage and negotiate the contract.

I didn’t get it, but then after the taping, Vanna said, “You want me to introduce you to Richard?” I said, “Sure, I’d love it.” And that was the moment, once I met Richard that allowed for the rest of the game shows that I hosted after that. So that’s one thing. There’s so many moments of people being amazing with me.

24 fingers: Thank you. You’re very generous to others so I’m sure that comes back to you. And what’s been the career-defining moment? You might not have had it yet.

Pat: That’s a good question. I’ve had a couple of great careers. I’ve always had jobs that I love. I think after getting into television, the career-defining moment was Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish holiday. And I’ll tell you why.

I’m a radio air personality, I hear the local TV station back in Pennsylvania has an opening for a weatherman. I asked if I could audition, first they said no, we’re only taking people with TV experience and I talked them into allowing me to go for it.

Practised all weekend, I put a little red dot on the middle of my mirror and I pretended that was the camera lens, so I got used to looking into the camera. I’ve got these little kids’ weather books that defined, here’s a high pressure system, a low pressure system, so it sounded like I would know what I’m talking about.

And I went in and I auditioned, and at the end of it, I knew this because I was on the radio that morning, and talking about it, and at the end of it, I said, “And happy Rosh Hashanah to all my Jewish friends,” thinking no big deal, it was just a flow of being comfortable with the whole thing.

And then I got the job, and three months later I found out from the owner of the station who happens to be Jewish, that that was the moment we decided it was you because you were so open and so positive with all kinds of people. So whatever the inspiration was to say happy Rosh Hashanah literally shifted me from being this radio personality to television, which I did for the next many years, decades.

24 fingers: That’s lovely. So if you could won an award, who would you thank? 

Pat: I think my kids, because that’s made the biggest difference. I’ve got four kids, and they’re amazing. And it really woke me up to shifting how I live life. It wasn’t about just me anymore. There was something about those moments of being connected in love. So I think my kids would be at the top of the list.

And then some of my mentors along the way, I’ve worked with a person called Werner Erhard who created the Landmark Forum. Michael Beckwith who is the pastor at my spiritual centre, Agape in Los Angeles. I think my kids and those two would be at the top of the list.

24 fingers: Give me a timesaver of the day.

Pat: Timesaver of the day. I’ve learned a lot by studying successful people, and we share a lot of it in our Rubicon programmes. We first start with Einstein time, where maybe how we think time works, linear time works, isn’t exactly the way it is. Einstein said one minute with your hand on a hot stove can feel like an hour, an hour with the person that you love can feel like a minute and that time is relative.

So we start to show you how to have a different experience of time. Mostly we complain about time. There’s not enough time. I’m going to be late. There’s stress that’s involved with it. But if you can shift your relationship to time, all of a sudden, magically, you end up getting more done.

We also get into how important it is to plan out your day, even if you’re flexible and need to change it. But there’s something about prioritising what’s important and then putting it into a schedule and doing that versus what feels good in the moment.

Because if we’re about putting out fires and just doing whatever there is to do next, we’ll be drawn to do the thing that we like more versus the thing that may be more important. It’s that whole 80-20 rule of 20% of our actions producing most of our results. So to actually box yourself into doing what you know is the right thing to do. Even if you might be resisting a little bit.

And then the third one, which will maybe sound strange to people, but one of the things that we show people is multitasking makes you stupid and it’s based on a number of different scientific studies that show the second you’re doing two important things at once, your brain’s power diminishes dramatically.

You’re not as creative. You’re more stressed. You get tired quicker. You don’t think as clearly. So we show you how to do one thing at a time and then do the next thing and then the next thing. So scheduling your day and then doing just that thing.

We even have something called 45-15, which is you shut off all notifications of emails coming in and text, you get a glass of water ahead of time, you’ve had your snack, you’ve used the bathroom and you set an alarm for 45 minutes. And you set an alarm by the way because even checking the time is multitasking and it’s taking your brain off of something that you’re focusing on.

And then people do this and you start to train your brain to be able to just do that thing, and it’s amazing how much more you can get done in a day. I know it sounds like a simple thing and sometimes people resist doing it, and then when they try it they go, “Oh this is great, this is so cool.”

So that’s some of what I use for practising what I preach as the coach to have more time in the day.

24 fingers: I’m very guilty of multitasking. So where do you see the coaching industry in 24 months?

Pat: Well, I think, first of all, I don’t know, but I think the industry, there are some people who are really good salespeople who don’t necessarily back it up with the substance of coaching. So I think some of that’s going to start to drop away.

Because just knowing how to create this system means that you’re able to sell with a lot of sizzle, but it doesn’t have the substance to it. I think people will start to avoid that. You may get a one-time sale from somebody, but they wouldn’t want to do it ongoing.

For us, over 60% of the people who do our initial 10-week Rubicon want to do advanced versions of it and continue. There are people who, when we started it back in 2020 that did Rubicon and who are still on a Rubicon team five years later.

So I think that’s going to be the change. There’s going to be a little less of the hype and a little bit more of what really makes a difference for people.

24 fingers: I love it. And so what’s an interesting fact about your company?

Pat: Interesting fact. Well, where the name came from. Many years ago, I was reading a Psychology Today and they talked about an actual psychological phenomenon of crossing the Rubicon and then I read more about it. Crossing the Rubicon goes back to Julius Caesar’s time. He was at the banks of the Rubicon River and was told if he crossed the river with his men, he would have to defeat the enemy because there was no turning back and he had a choice to make.

So in that moment the die was cast, he decided to move forward and went on to become the emperor of Rome. So nowadays it means to pass a point of no return, to literally leave behind the way things have been and take this fateful decision like this is a moment of shifting my life towards the future for what’s possible.

So I love calling our company Rubicon Results because it really is about that. It’s about the fact that it doesn’t matter what your limiting beliefs are, doesn’t matter what you failed at in the past, doesn’t matter if you have the story of you not being good enough or strong enough or capable enough or old enough or young enough or smart enough or whatever.

None of that matters if you can literally cross that Rubicon and begin the rest of your life, like at this point of demarcation between who you’ve been, and who you’re going to be. And we help set the stage for that and really create the foundation for the rest and the best of your life.

24 fingers: If you can have a 24-minute chat with anybody living or dead, who would it be?

Pat: Well, my first answer would be my parents. They’ve passed now. And just that thought of having one more conversation, I’m moved by it, just the thought of it. So I mean, that would be, if I was given a choice, I would probably pick that.

If I needed to pick somebody who I could learn from, or would want to ask questions of, when I was a kid, I was impacted by the death of our US president, John F. Kennedy. I was in first grade and they didn’t tell us why, but they sent us home and when we got home halfway through the day, my mum was sitting there crying.

And it was the first time I realised there were people in the world that could really make a difference. So politics wasn’t of interest to me, but the ability to have character and say the right thing and to move masses with what you’re saying and what you’re doing was really powerful. So I think the chance to talk to John F. Kennedy would be amazing.

24 fingers: Thank you for sharing that. And what’s one word you’d like people to describe you with?

Pat: Love. I love love. I strive for seeing the gold in anyone. Part of the reason our coaching programmes are powerful is because I help people see how amazing they are, and I can’t help but fall in love with people who are up to something, who are vulnerable, who are willing to put it all on the line to create this new relationship, this new business, this new body image, this new writing a book or a project or whatever.

So I find myself saying “I love you” a lot to people, probably more than most business coaches would do, but I do. So that’s the word that I most want when it comes to how people think of me.

24 fingers: I know that anybody that finishes a coaching call with you has never left that room feeling anything other than a million dollars, so it’s true. Now you’re in LA and I’m in Dubai. We sound very global. I’m just going to do a screengrab. What’s one quote that defines your work ethic?

Pat: Well, when I say something about the global thing, we started a new team Thursday morning. And I’m just so proud of this because it shows that people all over the world are up to something.

On our team, we have six different countries represented. This is a 12-person team, and we’ve got, naturally the U.S., but we have the Arab Emirates, somebody’s in Abu Dhabi, somebody’s in Sweden, somebody’s in London, somebody’s in Spain. What’s the sixth one? Oh, Zambia in Africa.

So I love the fact that people come together once a week on a Zoom call. It doesn’t matter where you’re from. It doesn’t matter your age. We have the team ranging from somebody who’s 22 to 71.

But there’s like this common design of human being to want to see what’s possible in life and to take the actions towards that. So, sorry to hijack your question.

My favourite quote that’s on the bottom of my emails is from George Eliot and the quote is “It’s never too late to be what you might have been.” And that’s something that I live by and get a chance to share with other people.

Somewhere along the way, I found out that George Eliot wasn’t really George, it was Mary, somebody who 200 years ago found it much easier to get published with a male name. So that made it even more exciting. It’s like nothing can stop you in life. So that’s my favourite.

24 fingers: Now, I know your feelings on social media, but have you got a favourite campaign that you’ve seen that someone’s done or that’s resonated with you?

Pat: Let’s see. Well, recently, two answers for that. But recently the Gwyneth Paltrow campaign, I don’t know if people have seen it in other places in the world, but in the US, she’s done a commercial for Ashley Madison.

That was the couple that was caught at the Coldplay concert having an affair. And so she did a commercial where she’s representing the employees of Astronomer. And she talks about, “We’ve been getting a lot of questions lately.” And they start to show the question. And it’s clearly a question like, “Oh my God, how are you guys dealing with it?” And then she’ll answer it from a perspective of, “Yes, Astronomer really works when you use this type of technology” or whatever.

So anyway, it’s just I think it’s clever and it’s a great PR campaign. Though for me, what I watch most in social media is this may not sound like the right thing to answer, but it’s the truth, is the clips from Britain’s Got Talent and America’s Got Talent. There’s something about that moment where you’re watching somebody and you don’t know how it’s gonna go. And sometimes Simon will raise his hand to stop the song and say, “No, that’s not working. It’s boring, have another song” and they’ll do the song. And it moves me every time.

There’s something about that moment where you see somebody’s life change. They’re extraordinary, living their purpose, sharing their talent, and then everybody stands up and gives them a standing ovation. Somebody hits the buzzer and the gold confetti starts to fall. And however they’ve been up until that moment in life, this moment on is never going to be the same. So that’s what I get excited about.

24 fingers: What’s been the best part of your day? I know it’s early for you.

Pat: Best part of my day so far. Well, obviously talking to you. There’s a book that I read called Tiny Habits by B.J. Fogg. I think you’ve read it or you’re reading it too.

And he talks about this, he calls it the Maui syndrome or whatever, but basically says the what you’re thinking about as you first wake up has a momentum to it. It literally has your brain operating in a certain perspective. One of the things he says is, as you get out of the bed, as you put your feet on the floor, the first thing to say is “It’s going to be a great day” and really feel it. He says sometimes there’s enough going on that you might have to say “It’s going to be a great day somehow.” But no matter what, you’re creating that it’s going to be a great day.

And I firmly believe there’s a direct correlation between what we’re thinking about and what comes about in life. We work on that in Rubicon in terms of how to shift your thoughts to what you want to create in life.

So for me, that was my favourite part of the day so far. It’s like getting out of bed and stepping on the floor and going, “It’s going to be a great day.”

24 fingers: Finally, anything to plug?

Pat: Well, right or wrong, I’ve been plugging Rubicon here a lot, but I guess what I’ll plug is if there’s any interest in looking at how things could be beyond the way they already are, you may or may not want to do Rubicon Results, but my invitation is to do a discovery call with me.

It’s a 45-minute Radical Results Discovery Call and the whole purpose of the call is not a sales call whatsoever. The whole purpose of the call is to help you recognise how amazing you are, what is your purpose in life, what’s next for you in life that will light you up and what your vision in life.

And then out of that, sometimes people choose to do Rubicon, but I get excited about it because I meet somebody new. We have this conversation and within 45 minutes they’re on top of the world walking away from the call.

So, I invite people to do that. It’s a free call. It’s RubiconResultsCall.com. That’ll get you right on my calendar and just schedule a call and we’ll have a conversation that will lift you up, I promise.

24 fingers: It’s definitely true. You’ve been amazing as always, such a pleasure. And thank you so much for your time.

Pat: Emma, can I just say this? I love what you’re doing not only with this series, but what you do with your classes and what you do with people, really helping them solve their social media problems. And there’ve been a number of people once they got to know you in Rubicon, who then have done your programmes. I’ve never heard somebody say anything negative about you, ever. You are somebody who obviously loves what they’re doing, but is really credible. You know what you’re doing so you are the solution to so many people’s problems.

I know you do this to give other people a chance to talk about themselves. But if anybody is watching to this point in the video and you haven’t reached out to Emma Goode yet, my invitation is to do that. It will rock your world, no question.

And I love you, I love your energy and just how much you enjoy doing your job. So thank you for letting me be part of that.

24 fingers: Thanks so much. Take care.

Pat: All right. Bye.

The UK’s Influencer Marketing Guru Gets Real

24 fingers: Hello everybody, welcome to another series of 24 questions. Today we’re joined by influencer marketing expert, Gordon Glenister. We say expert, We’re going to call him the UK’s actual guru of influencer marketing. Welcome, Gordon. It’s lovely to see you.

Gordon: Thank you. Always a pleasure.

24 fingers: So are you ready for 24 questions?

Gordon: Hit me with it.

24 fingers: Right, let’s dive straight in. What’s your favourite word?

Gordon: My favourite word is preposterous. The reason is because my partner absolutely loves it. It cracks her up whenever I say it. It’s not on a frequent basis, but whenever I say it, she just loves it. It’s got its own identity really.

24 fingers: How sweet, how romantic.

24 fingers: What gets you up in the morning?

Gordon: I think it’s really a feeling of creating an impact in what I do. I think a lot of us who run our own businesses do so not just to make money, but because we want to make a difference. We want to feel we’re creating value for the people we work with and for our clients.

24 fingers: Definitely. I spoke to somebody last night at midnight my time. She’d had a family situation, a bereavement, and I said she really didn’t need to be taking this call during such a difficult time. She said no, this call is really important because it was her mission to help people. She really wanted to make an impact and had such a sense of purpose that no matter what’s going on, she really wanted to help. That really struck home because you’re right – when you’re doing something you deeply believe in, it doesn’t actually feel like a job. If you can impact somebody and really empower them, it’s incredibly rewarding.

Gordon: Absolutely, 100%.

24 fingers: What do you truly, honestly think of social media?

Gordon: I love it and hate it in equal measure, like the rest of the world. I went to an influencer meet-up for the first time last night, which was something I just saw online. It was really interesting to talk to some of the people there – both established influencers and creators, and those who were starting out.

It can be quite a lonely job being in the social media space all the time. You’re constantly creating content, then you think you’ve done a really good video, but somebody else’s content gets ridiculous amounts of comments and likes. So it almost fuels comparison syndrome, and I don’t think that’s just a young person thing. I think it’s right across all generations.

For a while, it made me stop deciding to even start TikTok or Instagram video content. Then I thought to myself, if I’m teaching this, I’ve got to be doing it. I’ve got quite a niche subject, so I’m going to find my lane and just be consistent.

Some of the videos I’ve done have got 700-800 views, others have got 5,000-6,000, but not hundreds of thousands. That’s okay though. I always say to people, remember you’re serving an audience. The audience doesn’t have to be massive; it needs to be relevant. If somebody else has a very wide brief and all they’ve got is a load of lurkers, they’re not really going to serve them in any way. So it’s about staying true to your North Star, staying true to the why behind what you do.

Obviously, there are also people out there who just want to share information about their family and personal life. My mum is almost 90, and social media has been fantastic value for her. It’s enabled her to see what’s going on with her grandchildren. She often says she loves the pictures when we went to Switzerland or asks if I saw the children’s graduation. For that, it’s great. It’s also about supporting other people – if they’ve got a birthday or have done well in something. So I think it’s basically good and bad.

24 fingers: Thank you for being so honest about the comparison syndrome. I think that is a real thing, and as the saying goes, it’s the thief of joy. It’s so easy to be scrolling through and see they’ve got X amount of followers, they’re getting this, they’ve just been gifted that. That’s a really lonely place to be. I’ve just written a blog about that actually (How to Build Authentic Brand Collaborations That Actually Convert). I think you’re 100% right – 100 targeted followers who are really engaged with your brand are much more valuable than 10,000 scrollers. So it’s not about numbers.

I read something yesterday or was listening to a podcast, and they said something that’s still relevant from quite a long time ago: if you stop because you’re worried that you don’t have the follows and community, wait another year and you’re going to be even further back. You’ll have another year’s worth to catch up on. So whatever your current state is, just go for it.

Gordon: The big thing with social media is being consistent, not being perfect. That’s really important. You can spend a lot of time crafting a video and making it perfect. I think it’s all about the power of storytelling. People remember stories that impact them.

I listen to a particular video every day, and the reason I love it is because it tells me anecdotes that I can totally relate to. That’s what we want as viewers – emotional impact. We want to be able to see something we can relate to.

That’s why influencers are successful – they’re able to nurture a very like-minded community and really own their niche, as long as they’ve done that in the right way. That’s why they’ve become popular.

24 fingers: That segues me really nicely – Kindles or books?

Gordon: I’ve never got a Kindle, so I’ve never really read a book in that format.

24 fingers: Let’s say Audible then – Audible or books?

Gordon: Well, obviously I’m a podcast host, so I do listen to some other podcasts occasionally. But to be honest, I’m so busy. I probably should read and listen to more. Ironically, I’ve found more interest in YouTube over the last year. It’s amazing what’s on YouTube really.

Sometimes I want to relax away from this stuff. Even on the train, I could be working, but I’m just playing a game – just something to decompress.

That’s really important because one of the most important things we’ve got to do is rest our brain, rest our mind so we can consume what we’ve learned, rather than just taking in information constantly. It’s like going to a conference and attending session after session – all you’ve done is take in information. You haven’t actually absorbed the content or considered how to apply it to your own business.

That’s why I’m always in favour of round tables where you can effectively question the speaker and bounce ideas back. We learn through talking to each other because the brain can’t absorb everything all the time. It hasn’t got the capacity, and we’re overloaded. So there’s a bit of me that says less is more, but go deep rather than shallow.

24 fingers: What do you think is the biggest challenge to your industry right now?

Gordon: In terms of influencers, obviously there are more and more of them coming into the market, but the reality is there are more and more of them not making any money. If you look at the triangle, the top 1% are obviously killing it and making millions, but it’s that top 10% that are regular earners.

It’s like asking why Keira Knightley is in every other film, or why certain actors we often see get cast repeatedly. Why is Bradley Walsh in so many TV programmes? The reality is because these are professional influencers who come in and do the job consistently. They’re getting rebooked.

Therefore, the newbies on the block have got to work their way up, and that often starts with gifting. Gifting is good in its way, particularly from a hobbyist point of view, but I always say free dresses don’t pay the rent. If you’re looking to do this as a full-time career, you’ve got to monetise that content and be all over the analytics.

Obviously, there are concerns about AI and deepfakes – people almost using other people’s identities. That’s a real concern and worry. It’s been around for a bit actually. There have been stories of YouTubers who’ve had their accounts cloned, and particularly if it’s linked to a subscription, that subscription is going somewhere else. That’s really scary.

But I also think the creator economy is exploding already. More and more people are realising that this is not only a great side hustle but a real career. AI is going to replace hundreds of thousands of jobs around the world. That’s a real thing that’s already happening with some major brands.

For me, it’s about being skilled up, not just in AI, but largely around content creation. I think we’re going to start seeing more people who have what I call a portfolio career. I certainly have one, and I know others, particularly in my age group, have considered this. Maybe it’s about hiring somebody full-time versus having multiple income streams.

24 fingers: Absolutely right. Interesting. So I know you grew up in Essex. What did you want to be when you were growing up?

Gordon: Ironically, I’m living in the house I grew up in, which you don’t often get to do. It’s almost like full circle. It’s quite funny actually, because for a number of years I was living in Cambridge for about 30-plus years. I only came back here a year ago because my dad passed away, so we’re now living in his house.

I know the area really well, but obviously you have to start again with meeting all sorts of new people. It was quite funny because I met some old school friends I hadn’t seen since I was 16. Can you imagine going into the curry house and having them ask me a question that was only relatable to when I was 16?

But to answer your question – I’ve always wanted to work in TV, either behind the scenes or in production. I feel like I’m edging closer to that more and more because I’m in the branded content space. I’ve got friends in TV and I’ve interviewed people like Martine Coxall from BBC News. I’ve always been fascinated by the small screen. I’d love someone to say, “Do you want to work at ITV?” Something to do with entertainment has always been an ambition of mine.

24 fingers: Excellent. So what led you to your current career?

Gordon: It was an accident really. I used to work as director general of the British Promotional Merchandise Association for 11 years. I loved that job. After 11 years, that was quite an innings. I felt like we’d done some amazing things there – really transformed the industry and the association. But I wanted something new and different, so I started my own consultancy to help other trade associations with their strategy, marketing, and membership growth.

I found myself meeting up with Andrew Kentish from the Branded Content Marketing Association. We met in a hotel in London, and I was talking to him about how the BCMA and I could help each other. He was about to say, “This is great Gordon, let’s catch up again in a month’s time,” when I said, just before leaving, “What about this whole influencer space? There’s no industry body to support them.”

I meant influences, agencies, and his mouth just opened as if to say, “You’re right.” It was a bit of a Wild West industry that desperately needed some regulation. So we set about creating a division of the BCMA focused on influencer marketing rather than creating a new industry body.

We launched it in a big London nightclub. I knew a lot about associations, but I knew nothing about influencer marketing. So the first thing I thought was, “Well, I’d better try and find a book or listen to some podcasts.” I couldn’t really find much that was there, so I thought, “Why don’t I write a book?”

I’d never written a book in my life before. The book has done exceptionally well, actually. Maybe it’s because I interviewed some amazing people within the industry. Having virtually no knowledge actually helped me because it meant I was able to get first-party testimony and advice. I interviewed over 40 people for it. Then of course, ironically, when the book came to be launched, those people helped promote it for me. I was actually using an influencer strategy without even knowing it.

24 fingers: So your favourite word was preposterous. Can you use it in a sentence?

Gordon: Well, I was just thinking about this. I mean, basically I think this interview is quite preposterous, if I’m honest.

24 fingers: That’s the 24 questions way. Now can you make it rhyme?

Gordon: So I thought about, rather than saying “happy and glorious,” why don’t we say “happy and preposterous”?

24 fingers: You’ve got to make it rhyme though.

Gordon: I actually struggle with this. Preposterous… it’s got “ous,” it’s “erous”… rhinoceros.

24 fingers: Here you go… Someone might think that the influencer industry is preposterous, but I think it’s actually monstrous for them.

Gordon: That’s a good one.

24 fingers: What advice would you give to your younger self?

Gordon: Be patient, because unfortunately I’m not. I’ve been asked in interviews in the past, “What are your strengths and weaknesses?” I always say my strength is impatience, and the reason I say that is because I have a sense of urgency about getting things done. I’m an action-oriented, fast-paced type of character, and it’s in my DNA really.

I’m very much like my mum. My mum is nearly 90, but she’s faster with her Zimmer frame than some people just walking normally. I love it. She’s fantastic to watch. She’s passed it on to me.

24 fingers: What’s the best thing anyone’s ever done for you?

Gordon: When I left the BPMA, which was an industry I was very passionate about, my board members took me out to dinner at my favourite restaurant, which was fabulous. But they all gave me gifts that were relevant – they had a story behind every gift. You didn’t just get branded pens or mugs; they were all very thoughtful.

But also, my second-in-command Operations manager went round the exhibition that we were running, completely without my knowledge. Obviously people knew I was leaving, so she collected over a hundred comments in a lovely book. Although people always talk fondly about me, it’s never an easy job heading an association. There are probably going to be people who have views about what you do and how you do it.

But I was always a kind-spirited person, and to see all those comments in that book actually made me shed a tear. As I said at the beginning of this interview, you want to create impact. There’s always that role when you’re doing it for your company, but when you do it for an industry, that was quite palpable.

24 fingers: What’s been your career-defining moment?

Gordon: If I’m honest, it’s writing the book because I wrote it with quite a lot of imposter syndrome. You have to remember, I wrote this book without any knowledge of the sector. Normally you write a book with a lot of knowledge.

To then find that the book went on to be a finalist in the Business Book of the Year Awards and has been translated into Portuguese, with Chinese coming later this year and Polish in 2027, makes me feel that was truly career-defining. It hasn’t made me lots of money, but it’s given me authority in a sector that was very new to me. That has been great, if I’m honest.

24 fingers: And I loved your book signing. Thank you again for the invite. If you won a big award of some kind, who would you thank?

Gordon: I’d have to thank my partner, Marinella. The reason I’d say that is because behind every successful man is often a powerful woman. I won’t lie – running a business has its downsides. There are wobbles, there are things that happen in your personal life which sometimes we don’t always see on social media.

I think having stability, having somebody to rationalise your thoughts, having somebody who is always your echo chamber and support network, but also somebody who will share some home truths with you and doesn’t over-inflate your ego – that’s also important.

24 fingers: Can you give us a timesaver of the day?

Gordon: For example, packing your lunch the day before. It’s amazing how much time you can spend if you’re going to have sandwiches and everything else, doing all of that preparation. Or using food that you might have had the day before and cooking more.

One thing about living with a Portuguese partner is they always overcook, which was something very alien to me. They overcook because they want to have leftovers for the next day, and sometimes it’s true. Chilli con carne tastes better the day after, so being able to save time and prepare the day before is helpful.

But I would actually echo that with preparing a list for what you want to do the next day, the day before.

24 fingers: Where do you see the influencer industry in 24 months?

Gordon: I’m in the influencer industry, employee advocacy, and a little bit in the AI space as well. The good thing is I think I’ve put my markers in all three growth areas, and I think they’re all going to expand hugely in the next two years.

People are going to be much more in tune with personal branding and realising that traditional advertising isn’t cutting through in the same way that personal, individual content is. We’re seeing that with influencer marketing anyway, and employers are realising that too with their own employees. Being able to leverage that is important.

Realising that AI will be fairly transformational, not just in terms of workflow and content creation, but in terms of outreach and the way we do ideation as well. I think it will accelerate the efficiency levels of people in the industry.

It will make it more competitive, that’s for sure. If you think about it, what was the bastion of thought leaders – now everybody will have access to that information and the same tools.

24 fingers: Exactly right.

24 fingers: I think we probably met about 24 months ago, didn’t we? Where were you then?

Gordon: It feels like I’ve known you forever, but I think it probably was about two years ago.

So in 2023, I wasn’t here – I was up in Cambridge. I was still involved in the industry. I hadn’t launched Employeefluence then, so I was still very much in the influencer marketing space and still involved with the BCMA.

What I’ve realised is that the influencer marketing agency space is cluttered now, even though the industry is growing. Like anything, you want to go where the blue ocean is. If your viewers or listeners haven’t heard about that, there are great books on blue ocean strategy – finding markets that are untapped.

I’m not saying employee advocacy is untapped, but it’s definitely going to expand hugely, and there are fewer fish in that pond. Of course, I’ve got a background in personal branding and influence, so it’s a natural progression.

24 fingers: What’s an interesting fact about your company?

Gordon: I’ve never sought outside investment, so they’ve all been effectively self-funded. Whether that’s a good thing or not, I don’t know, but I’m very proud of the fact that I’ve been able to bootstrap them and grow them. That’s an interesting fact, I suppose.

24 fingers: If you could have a 24-minute Zoom chat with anyone, living or dead, who would it be?

Gordon: I’d want two people. One is David Attenborough, who is an icon for me. I love everything about him. He’s like the granddad of television. If I could get him on anything I do, his programmes are just off the charts. I absolutely love them. I love his narration, I love his gentleness, and you realise how much you can fall in love with somebody’s voice and personality. That’s really important.

The other is the Dalai Lama, and that’s because I have recently invested a lot of time in Buddhism – not necessarily as a religion, but more as a way of thinking.

I actually had a bit of an epiphany in 2024, which wasn’t good. It was a very difficult year for us in lots of ways. If I’m honest, I felt like giving everything up. I was really done. I felt the world is moving in a very different direction. The news is very toxic. My mind was a bit of a mess, actually. That’s not unusual for a lot of us, though we may not always share that.

My mum told me about this video called Deep Wisdom. If you ever want to listen to some amazing, thought-provoking content – and I mean really thought-provoking – with lovely, quiet music, it’s profound and it’s free.

24 fingers: I love it. Thank you for sharing, Gordon. Hopefully it’s not preposterous, but what’s one word you’d want people to describe you with?

Gordon: No, it’s enthusiastic. It’s the one word that’s pretty much followed me all through my career in some way. I like to think I have enthusiasm for everything I do. A lot of people say that.

24 fingers: I’m in Dubai, you’re in Southend, so I’m going to have to screen grab this for our selfie.

24 fingers: What’s your favourite social media campaign?

Gordon: I think it’s probably the Ice Bucket Challenge. The reason for that is it was one of the most engaging campaigns in history, but it also raised a huge amount of money for charity – I think it was for ALS research. It was $150 million they raised, and it was in 150 countries.

What it did was more than just being a campaign – it allowed people to participate. I remember doing it at Promotional Products Week. We did it in Russell Square Park, and I remember we videoed it. My team had such fun chucking water over the director general – me! But I think it allowed us to not take ourselves too seriously.

24 fingers: It was accessible as well, wasn’t it? Everyone could do it.

Gordon: Very accessible. If you’ve ever been to a water park and been under one of those big buckets when the water comes down, it feels so emotional when you’re flooded with water. It’s quite an incredible feeling.

24 fingers: What’s one quote that defines your work ethic?

Gordon: “A brand is what somebody says about you when you’re not in the room.” I know Jeff Bezos said that, but it’s something that literally follows me everywhere. When I talk to people about how to leverage your influence online, remember it’s not what you say you are – it’s what other people say you are that has the greatest bearing.

It’s the same way that when we go to find a restaurant or a destination, we’ll look at TripAdvisor or we’ll look at the reviews before we buy a product. So when someone says, “Oh Gordon, I’ve heard wonderful things about you from X,” it holds way more value because somebody else has spoken about me.

A lot of people I know work with my website developer son, and they often come to me and say, “That Louis that you recommended – he’s wonderful.” And I’m like, “Yeah, and he’s my son.” But what’s incredible is that kind of reputation and social proof is following him around. People have got that perception as well.

That gives your brand so much value and should give you the opportunity to have inbound leads on a regular basis. You haven’t got to pay the likes of Google. You’re getting people who find you through recommendations from other people who are advocating on your behalf.

24 fingers: Absolutely right. This is early, but what’s been the best part of your day so far?

Gordon: Well, I go for a walk when I’m working at home every day by the sea. I did that this morning and listened to Deep Wisdom. Then I came back for a black coffee and sat down in my dining room, nice and chilled and relaxed, with a nice bunch of calls to follow me through the day.

I think in a way it’s about managing your life in a way that fulfils you. But also having regular moments – things that you do on a regular basis. It doesn’t have to be every morning, but getting yourself into routines is actually very good for your soul. It’s good for your mind and it’s good for your health.

I also have a big healthy shake full of loads of things in it. That’s how I start the day. But also, everything in moderation as well. I mean, last night I had a beer. I’m not going to deprive myself. It’s everything in moderation, really.

24 fingers: I couldn’t agree more. Finally, anything to plug?

Gordon: Well, anybody who is interested in growing their personal brand and influence, do give me a ring. We’re happy to set up a call. We’ve had some amazing case studies with people I’ve worked with over the years, and I’m really proud to see how they have developed.

From women who run online clothing businesses that I’ve brought to London Fashion Week, to recruitment experts who suddenly now have got their own personal identity in the manufacturing recruitment sector. So personal branding – I’d be happy to have a chat with any of your listeners or viewers.

24 fingers: Excellent. Well, Gordon, thank you so much. It’s always a pleasure, and I’m sure we’ll speak again soon. Thank you again for your time.

Gordon: Pleasure.

Emma bounded out of bed not just to celebrate 24 fingers’ sixth birthday recently (don’t worry, cake and candles were sorted later in the day), but also to enjoy 24 questions with Clare Horsley, founder of award-winning group Excel Elite Business Networking.

24 fingers: Morning, Clare.

Clare: Good morning, Emma.

24 fingers: How are you?

Clare: I’m hot! I’m very well.

24 fingers: Boiling, isn’t it?

Clare: Yeah, I’m not going to moan though. No, I’m very well, thank you, I’m really, you know, privileged to be able to start the day with speaking with yourself, so thank you for inviting me.

24 fingers: Oh, bless you. Well today’s a very special day, actually, as well, because 24 fingers is six years old today.

Clare: Oh, is it? Happy birthday!

24 fingers: Thank you very much. So yeah, we’ve got a few things planned today, but yeah, great to be together. So, let’s begin. Clare, what is your favourite word?

Clare: Fascinating.

24 fingers: Fascinating, ooh! What gets you up in the morning?

Clare: My children.

24 fingers: How many do you have, I think two, is it? Is it two?

Clare: Two, yeah. 13 and 11. One at school, one homeschooling, but that’s another topic there.

24 fingers: Oh. That’s another story? Look, those days are over for me, but I feel your pain. What do you truly, honestly think of social media?

Clare: It’s powerful. I mean, it was quite difficult actually to come up with that answer, because I have lots of thoughts about social media, but I think the main message that comes across is its power, really.

24 fingers: Yeah, it’s hugely powerful, and sometimes that power’s used for good, sometimes it’s used for bad. Kindles or books?

Clare: Books.

24 fingers: 100% agree. What do you truly, honestly think of– no, I’ve done that one. Too early, I haven’t had enough caffeine. It’s too early for me, that’s why I should do these interviews in the afternoon. What do you think is the biggest challenge in our industry? So, Clare, you run weekly and monthly networking groups, don’t you?

Clare: Yes.

24 fingers: What’s the biggest challenge for you? At the minute, I can imagine, Covid, but…

Clare: I mean, it’s a massive learning curve and I’m working very differently to how I used to work. I think actually, my main challenge right now is the volume of work that it’s created. So this isn’t necessarily a negative, but when your systems change, and when your processes change, and the volume of work increases, you have to look back at your existing structure, and just think about what you can put in, to incorporate, to ensure the smooth flow of your service delivery.

It’s something that I’m learning to do, something that, you know, every week is improving, but I would say that’s probably the volume, yeah, the volume of work, and I have also put the word in there, consistency. I am consistent with what I do, but I think it’s also really important for people to be, especially now, more than ever, on social media, consistent, because we are relying much more on this tool particularly at the moment.

24 fingers: I couldn’t agree with you more. At the beginning of lockdown, my partner Kathy and I were talking about being visible, and consistency was a really strong message. Even though we can’t physically see our customers, or don’t have our physical retail stores open, we do need to be front of mind, and social media is great for that. We talk about this thing, about being like water rather than fire, so post consistently, whether consistent for you is once a week, once a day, just be consistent with that, rather than like 20 hundred times one day, then nothing for a month, because people forget about you, and then it’s all too much, and it’s just this horrid kind of imbalance, so yeah, really great advice and I 100% agree. So, did you always want to be doing this? What did you want to be when you were growing up?

Clare: When I was growing up, I wanted to be a musician. Yeah, I wanted to be a musician. I used to play the violin in an orchestra, and I played the piano, I was part of a children’s choir, and I used to get on stage, I used to do drama and acting. I don’t know what happened, somewhere along my teens, it was much more cool to be probably drinking White Lightning down in the park with my friends. I then sort of lost momentum, which is something I do regret a little bit, to be honest, but I’ve now got a piano at home, and I still play the piano. I’ve purchased a guitar in lockdown as well, and I’ve got a ukulele, so I’m going to be teaching myself a few more pieces on the piano.

24 fingers: Amazing. Yeah, White Lightning or Thunderbird in a park, I remember them well.

Clare: As I said that, as that came out, I was thinking I’m not quite sure if I should be saying that, but, let’s be honest, I’m sure there’s many people on the call who could relate to that.

24 fingers: You definitely need to be saying that on the call, we wouldn’t expect anything less at 24 finger Towers, we are all about the Thunderbird and White Lightning, and the reminiscing. So, your favourite word is ‘fascinating’, can you use it in a sentence, please?

Clare: Life is fascinating. I mean, I did struggle with that one a little bit, to be honest, but I think I use it quite a lot, and when I’ve been recording my podcast, I’ve realised, maybe I use it a little bit too much, so we’ve got a bit of a standing joke at the moment with my co-host, that you have to use a different word. But I genuinely find life fascinating. I find business fascinating, I find individuals fascinating, because it’s just so interesting. It’s just so interesting.

We’re all from different walks of life, we’ve all had different business journeys, I’m a qualified NLP practitioner as well, and, the mind is fascinating, you know, how it works, so I think that was the first one that I thought of.

24 fingers: That’s really interesting, and I 100% agree about the mind thing, and I’ve made some big changes over the last couple of years. I’m going to be writing a post today about what the last six years have taught me, both good and bad, but certainly, when you change your mind, you can absolutely change anything, and for those of you that know me well, drinking four litres of Diet Coke a day and then going to nothing, that was just one switch in my mind, and yeah, if I can do that for Diet Coke, I can do it for anything. So, can you make it rhyme now, fascinating?

Clare: No. I looked at this, I was thinking, the only word that comes to mind, I can’t get it to rhyme, but fascinator. I don’t know, I was just thinking of fascinators, like the headdress that you wear in weddings.

24 fingers: What about, I was just thinking, what about diversity is making life fascinating, maybe? Don’t know. Don’t know, it’s too early.

Clare: When I’m looking for words, I’ll come to you, Emma, yeah.

24 fingers: What advice would you give your younger self, who’s drinking Thunderbird in the park?

Clare: Yeah. Oh dear. Trust your voice. Yeah, trust your voice. What might be really interesting for some people who know me or don’t know me, is I was very, very shy. Very shy. So I was the person that would sit at the back of the class and spend the whole time of the lesson worrying about whether they were going to ask me the question, because I never used to put my hand up. So I had, yeah, very little confidence as a child, growing up terrified to speak, to say the wrong things. I knew the answers a lot, but I didn’t have the voice.

Then on the other end of the scale, then when I was doing public speaking a few years ago, I spoke to 5,000 people about business at the Excel London, which totally pushed me outside of my comfort zone, but that was a very monumental part for me, because that showed me, actually, that you can put your shoulders back, you can lift your head up high, and feel confident with the message that you’re delivering, so it’s a stark contrast from the quiet, timid little girl who never spoke.

24 fingers: Wow.

Clare: I’m going to shut up now.

24 fingers: No, genuinely, that needs big tens, because that is really inspirational, and I know public speaking in particular is something that people feel really nervous about. I’ve seen you in action, and yeah, I can’t equate younger Clare with the Clare that I see in front of me, so yeah, a huge congrats on that, amazing. What’s the best thing anyone’s ever done for you?

Clare: Married me.

24 fingers: Aw!

Clare: I know, how gushy’s that?

24 fingers: Very lovely. And you might not have had it yet, but what do you think has been your career-defining moment?

Clare: As you know, I’m growing and expanding and adding new parts to our business all the time. I think, again, going back to that moment on stage, something switched for me. It’s quite hard to articulate it, but when I was invited to do it, my initial reaction was to run, which, I think, very often in business is. If it pushes you outside your comfort zone, and you’ve never done it before, your mind, again, can tell you, “Don’t do it, let’s protect yourself, “let’s not even go there,” but it showed me two things.

It showed me that the power of the mind, and how we are capable of so many great things as individuals, and also, of course, in relation to me being so quiet, and not feeling that I added any value to anyone as a child by speaking, to then, and I can still remember it now, to standing there with a sea of people, and to have the applause at the end was a massive defining moment for me, because I thought A, people want to listen to me, B, I’ve done it. My hands were shaking, my palms were wet, I had to do the old trick of bending the knees when you’re speaking, and realised I loved helping people, reaching out to people and connecting with them. So that sort of encompasses my business a lot, because that’s what I do, so yeah.

24 fingers: Wow, amazing. If you won a big award of some kind, who would you thank?

Clare: A big award. I’ve put– there are so many people, so many people, but I think it– it sounds really gushy again, doesn’t it? Glad he’s not listening, because he’ll get a bit of a big head. I think I’d probably say my husband, because he’s seen me on a huge journey through what we’ve just talked about. Even when I made the decision to take my business completely online when Covid started, I sat in the garden, and I said: ‘No, I have two choices here. I sit back and I wait for it to be over, and then revert back to how I was, or I’m just going to go for this. I need to act quickly, I need to act now’.

He’s furloughed, and it’s difficult, because he’s at home all the time, so he’s been very patient, he’s been incredibly supportive, consistently, so I think it would have to be my husband, because without his support with the children, without his emotional support of me, I wouldn’t be able to do what I’m doing, so… Who is my husband anyway? I haven’t seen him.

24 fingers: Go, Mr Horsley, well done. So we spoke about systems and processes earlier, can you give us a time saver of the day, something that you use to maximise your time?

Clare: There’s so many things, but the first thing that popped into my mind, which, if Mr Mumford is listening, I hope he’ll be proud. I’ve embraced computerised systems. I do have a manual diary, but this situation and the volume of work that I’ve got has really made me, as I said earlier, identify how I could be working in more of a savvy way. I’m using Trello cards. Now, Trello — I barely used computers before Covid, so it’s way outside my comfort zone, but I’ve already seen in just a few weeks the power of when you’re working with someone, because I have a few key people within my business who support me and who I work with, Trello cards is a fantastic tool.

For those of you who don’t know, it’s like an online, almost like an online Post-it to-do list, but it’s much more than that. You can assign tasks, you can keep a record, I’m going to be using it as a little mini CRM system, so I can keep track of, have a template of when my members, when I speak to new prospects, to take them through the process. I can tick off once I’ve completed each task, so I would really recommend, if anyone hasn’t done already, to check out Trello – and they’re not paying me any commission for promoting it.

24 fingers: No, it’s a good system. Where do you see your business in 24 months?

Clare: Okay, so I’ve put on here, with at least 250 members, under the Excel Networking umbrella, and also, I have plans to go international, as well.

24 fingers: Love that.

Clare: Very excited about that.

24 fingers: Where were you 24 months ago?

Clare: I was recovering from a major operation 24 months ago. I had a period of illness in 2017 where I was in hospital 18 times. I had literally just started my business. Within weeks I was very, very poorly, so I still managed to keep running the business, and I remember one time, I literally had the nurses waiting for me with the trolley to go down to theatre, and I was introducing a new member, so a very challenging time, so yeah. I was recovering from a major operation 24 months ago. I was working at getting my fitness back, getting my stamina back, and trying to sort of, be the best mum I could be, alongside continuing to build my network, yeah.

24 fingers: What’s an interesting fact about you and your business?

Clare: It wasn’t my idea. It was a friend’s suggestion. So I’ve always been involved in network marketing, since 2013, so I’ve always been involved with that, and I’ve always done jobs which are– sorry, undertaken roles, is better English, where I’ve been ultimately enriching the lives of others, and helping people. I was looking for a group at the time, four-and-a-half years ago, and I couldn’t quite find one that fitted into my ethics and my values.

There were amazing groups out there, and very supportive of everyone, by the way, but I couldn’t quite find one that fitted with what my vision was, and a friend said to me, honestly I can remember it as clear as day, she said to me, ‘why don’t you set up your own?’ My response was, ‘don’t be so ridiculous’, thought about it for a few days, three weeks later I had a group of people together, and the rest is history.

24 fingers: If you could have a 24 minute — and I’m going to change this question — 24-minute Zoom call with anyone, living or dead, who would it be?

Clare: My grandma. Yeah, it would be my grandma. I actually commented on a post on LinkedIn about this, actually, interestingly. It would be my grandma, because I spent a lot of time growing up with my grandma, and she’s so wise, you know, and I still quote her, to this day. She spoke an awful lot of sense, she was so accommodating of every single person, no matter what their background, their religion, where they lived.

She was the kindest, sweetest, warm-hearted person, who valued every single person for being them, and I’ve learnt a huge amount from her, so I would love to have a chat with her to tell her where I’m at, and if it was a Skype, show her the children, and yeah, hopefully I’ve done her proud.

24 fingers: I’m sure you have. What’s one word you’d like people to describe you with?

Clare: Loyal. I stick to my word. I’m true to my word. I think honesty and transparency are very important, you know, in personal life, but then also in business, and, you know, I’m loyal to what I say. If I say I’m going to do something, I will do it. If I’m going to offer a service, I will do it, and I do everything to the best of my ability, so hopefully, people would say I’m loyal.

24 fingers: Yeah, I’m sure they would. Would you mind taking a selfie? So if I do print screen and you smile, Clare, we’ll do that. Who do you follow on social media? Who should we all check out?

Clare: On social media at the moment, oh, I follow loads of people. Okay, probably the one that comes to the forefront of my mind is Tej Lalvani from Dragons’ Den. I’m following him at the moment. We’ve actually had a few little conversations as well, and I was incredibly excited when he commented on something that I put up.

24 fingers: Boom.

Clare: Small things, but you know.

24 fingers: No, no, no. Little wins, mate, it’s all about the little wins.

Clare: I was like ‘oh, he’s actually taken the time out to message’. Yeah, so he’s been putting a lot of posts on there about mental health at the moment. He’s been putting a lot of posts on there about how we can look after ourselves as business owners, how the various challenges that we can face in business, and it resonates quite a lot with me, so yeah, I follow him at the moment.

24 fingers: Cool. What’s one quote that defines your work ethic?

Clare: “When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the aeroplane takes off against the wind, and not with it”, Henry Ford.

24 fingers: Very wise, I like that. It’s early, but what’s been the best part of your day, so far?

Clare: I’m enjoying our conversation, but also my daughter trotted off to school incredibly happy this morning.

24 fingers: Oh, nice.

Clare: It’s really challenging for the children, and yeah, she was actually singing Christmas tunes when she walked out the front door this morning. Don’t know why, but she was happy, so that’s the main thing.

24 fingers: I’ve got a few hours before mine even wakes up, so again, different universe.

Clare: My son’s in bed as well, so I’m with you.

24 fingers: Oh, maybe it’s a boy thing then. Finally, anything to plug?

Clare: So you can find me on Facebook, you can find me on LinkedIn, you can email me, so Excel Business Networking, you can find me on there, Clare Horsley. I’d also like to plug our new podcast show, which is called The Big Little Business Show. We’re interviewing a lot of business owners, and we’re basically identifying the challenges that businesses have, and inviting guest speakers to talk about how they’ve overcome those challenges. So yeah, I’m expanding my groups, and if anyone has any questions about business or requires some support, then please don’t hesitate to reach out to me.

24 fingers: Brilliant. Well, I’ve seen you in action, and I know how much people enjoy your groups, and what they get out of it, so keep doing what you’re doing, Clare. You’re doing a brilliant job, and thank you very much for your time.

Clare: Oh, thanks Emma. Thank you so much.

Our Emma’s ready to rock at any time of the day, but she was up and at ’em early doors for 24 questions with Rachel Taranaki, author of superb children’s self-help book The Worries, and one half of the brains behind the Crystal Companions Collection. More about those later…

24 fingers: Hi Rachel, how are you?

Rachel: I’m all right, how are you?

24 fingers: Well, thank you very much. I’m okay. So should we begin?

Rachel: Yeah, let’s begin.

24 fingers: What’s your favourite word?

Rachel: My favourite word is peaceful.

24 fingers: Very good. What’s gets you up in the morning?

Rachel: My alarm or the kids, both normally.

24 fingers: Your alarm is your kids. What do you honestly truly think of social media?

Rachel: I think it’s good and I think it’s bad. I think it’s really good to connect people that are so far away from each other like across the world. I think it’s really good to get messages out to lots of people at the same time, it’s good for promotion but I also think that people can get consumed by it in a not very good way.

You know, they start getting a bit obsessed about how many likes they’ve got on something or what people say. They get into arguments with people because opinions change and so, I don’t think that side of it is very good. But, you know, then you’ve got to take a break from it, haven’t you?

24 fingers: It’s all about balance, isn’t it? Kindles or books?

Rachel: Do you know what? I think both.

24 fingers: Really?

Rachel:  I love books more than Kindles because I love turning the pages and I think it’s really important for children to have books. But you know why I like a Kindle as well? It’s because at night time it’s got the backlight. That’s the only reason. I should get a book torch, shouldn’t I? That I can clip onto pages.

24 fingers: Do that instead. You’re an author, what do you think is the biggest challenge to your industry right now?

Rachel: I don’t know what to say about this because I’m a complete newbie to the whole industry. I think for us, the challenge with this book is to get it known and to get it to the right people that can take it to where we want it to go. So I think that’s our personal challenge at the minute.

24 fingers: We’re going be hearing about your book very shortly, but what did you want to be when you were growing up?

Rachel: I wanted to go to Africa and study and work with elephants because love them but then, I realised that I’d have to go to university and do a lot more schooling and zoology degrees. I didn’t want to do that, so…

24 fingers: What led you to your current career?

Rachel: I think just realising that if we can support children’s wellbeing and mental health from such an early age, and give them tools to help them cope with things that life throw at them. That’s a really good thing and I’ve really suffered with my mental health.

I have had, have post traumatic stress, so I sometimes think, “God, if I knew back then what I have learned now about how to handle emotions, and feelings, and bringing your crazy thoughts when it’s all getting out of control.” I think that probably would have helped me. So if you teach children that from a really young age, it can be tools to take them the whole way through.

24 fingers: I 100% agree, well done. The minute I saw your story on Twitter, I just knew that I needed to talk to you. So I’m so thrilled that we’re doing this today.

Rachel: Oh, that’s so lovely.

24 fingers: Your favourite word was peaceful, can you use it in a sentence?

Rachel: Feeling peaceful can be blissful.

24 fingers: Very good. That’s why you’re an author. Now can you make it rhyme?

Rachel: Oh, I don’t know.

24 fingers: You just did actually, didn’t you?

Rachel: Oh no, that was my rhyming one, yeah.

24 fingers: What was your sentence?

Rachel: Everybody should find something that makes them feel peaceful.

24 fingers: Very good. What advice would you give to your younger self?

Rachel: Oh, this was a difficult one. Do you know what? I think I’d say to my younger self, “Just keep going.” Because I think that every situation and everyone you meet, and everything you have to go through growing up, it can mould you into the grownup you want to be.

I had quite a difficult time at school and all of that, and when you’re in it it’s awful, but then when you look back you kind of go, “actually, that really helped me become who I am.”

24 fingers:  I think certain situations in adulthood that actually are, you know, horrendous at the time. When you come out of it, actually some of the things I’ve been through, I think actually I wouldn’t have changed that because that has helped me become a lot stronger.

Rachel: Yeah and you shouldn’t have regrets either. You know like a lot of people go, “Oh, I wish I didn’t” I just think, well even if it’s like a bad thing you did or happened to you, it’s like a lesson to learn. It’s something you should take from it, so.

24 fingers: Yeah, there’s a lesson in everything. What’s the best thing anyone has ever done for you?

Rachel: I think that was so hard too because there’s loads of amazing people that have done amazing things. Can I have a few people?

24 fingers: Go on. I’ll let you.

Rachel: It’s a bit of a story, is that all right as well?

24 fingers: Yeah, yeah.

Rachel: So in 2009, I was living in Samoa with my husband, who’s Samoan and we had just moved there, have been there a month and we were living on the beach with our friend’s beach resort. So we had a massive earthquake there, I think it was an 8.9 and because of that, what followed was a huge tsunami and me and my husband got all caught up in it and it was horrific and you know, we’re just very lucky to be here right now.

After that I had a friend in New Zealand called Nicole and she, with her own money, she bought me and my husband clothes and underwear, and toothbrush, and toothpaste and soap. She flew from New Zealand in the middle of this awfulness to bring us essentials that we needed. Not only did she do it for us, she bought extra toothpaste, and soap, and toothbrushes for the villagers because everybody lost everything. You know, we lost everything, everybody lost everything and it was just that. So, but as well as that, my sister-in-law, she was in New Zealand and she got on a plane to come and find us, and on the way to the airport, I don’t know how but somehow she was told that me and my husband were dead, that her brother and me were dead. So she flew the whole way thinking that she was coming to find bodies.

24 fingers: Oh that’s horrendous.

Rachel: When she pulled up at the house that we were at, oh it was just the best to see her and then I have another one, which is my mum. I told you it’s a long story. After the tsunami and everything, I just kind of lost my mind. I remember there was a point when I thought I’m actually not okay mentally and she flew all the way from England. And she came and she kind of went, looked at me and was like “err” and she brought me home to England. Then also my dad because my dad has just been amazing my whole life, but especially Nicole. She didn’t even question it, she just packed up a suitcase and brought it for us and forever grateful.

24 fingers: I just want to give you a hug now.

Rachel: It’s all right.  It’s a long time ago but when people are that kind, oh God, it just makes you forever grateful for everything. So yeah, that’s why I had a few people.

24 fingers: Okay, so you might not had it yet, but what’s been your career defining moment?

Rachel: Well I think getting my first book published, that’s pretty cool but I also hope there’s going to be lots of career defining moments, but I think once we get the book and the whole collection, Crystal Companions Collection into the schools and everywhere we want it to go. I think that will be amazing.

When it’s finally in there and helping these little children with all their worries and anxieties. That’s the whole point of it. That would just be the best.

24 fingers: Great, I’m sure that’s to come. Now if you won a big award of some kind, who would you thank?

Rachel: Do you know what? I’d thank my husband because he has just been brilliant. We have been through so much and he’s put up with all my mental health stuff and all the craziness and all of that. I’d also thank everybody because like I said before, you know, I think you meet people for a reason and even if they’re kind or not so kind, they’ve helped you become who you are. So yes, definitely.

24 fingers: So can you give us a time saver of the day?

Rachel: Have a stash of pens, a secret stash of pens that your kids don’t know where they are, because whenever… “have you got a pad?” “Oh yeah, hang on. Oh no, I don’t have a pen.” Then I have to spend an hour searching for a pen. So that’s my time saver and don’t tell anybody.

24 fingers: No, I want to tell every mum out there because you’re 100% right. Where do you see the publishing industry in 24 months?

Rachel: Well, I don’t know. Come back in 24 months and I’ll be like, “Oh wow.”

24 fingers: Where were you 24 months ago?

Rachel: Do you know it’s crazy, I found this a really difficult answer to find because it’s like I can’t remember. So to me that means I was probably coming out of my post traumatic stress, I would think, because I find that kind of time… There’s certain things I just cannot remember and I’m like: “how old were my kids two years ago?” So I would have been living in Cornwall and I think I was probably just trying to find my feet and start getting my brain back okay, I think, probably.

24 fingers: What’s an interesting fact about you?

Rachel: I don’t know. I can tell you an interesting fact about the book though.

24 fingers: Okay.

Rachel: I didn’t actually ever sit down to write a book. I didn’t go, “right, I’m going to write this book.” I was doing something completely different and these words just totally came in. It was like someone was telling me and I thought, “Oh, that’s important.” So I wrote them down and then the word worries came up, and I thought like, “That’s going to be the title” and that’s how the book came about. I didn’t try, it was just like, “You should be doing this.”

24 fingers: You’re were guided?

Rachel: Totally and it was brilliant.

24 fingers: Love it. If you can have a 24-minute Zoom call with anyone living or dead, who would it be?

Rachel: Do you know what, there’s so many.

24 fingers: Zoom’s up to 100 on the paid-for version.

Rachel: I’m going to have to say I think my person would be Michael Jackson. It’s just my opinion and I know it’s a weird one. I feel like he was was a very, very misunderstood person. Tricky, but my other one would be my friend Alan, who died last year and he owned a crystal shop in the town where we are.

I could just go in there and for like 10 minutes and three hours later. And he was so wise and he had so much knowledge of like self-healing and energy healing and all that amazing stuff. I just miss him, I just miss talking to him.

24 fingers: I want to give you another hug.

Rachel: Oh no, no, this doesn’t have to be like a sob story, you know.

24 fingers: What’s one word you’d like people to describe you with?

Rachel: Kind. I’d like people to think I was kind.

24 fingers: Would you mind taking a selfie for us? I’m gonna do screen grab if you smile. Done. I know you’re not a massive social media fan, but is there anything that you’ve seen on social media that you’d recommend other people to follow?

Rachel: Well, the other half of Crystal Companions is a lady called Angela J Spencer and she has her own business, a company called Babyopathy and that is brilliant. It’s a whole natural support for mums who are pregnant, all the way through to when they’ve had a baby and beyond. She does this brilliant thing called Routine in the Womb and it’s getting to know your baby’s movements, so you know if things are all right or not all right, and when to take action and when not to take action.

She really concentrates on stress through pregnancy, and I am first-hand knowledge of what can happen to babies if your mum is stressed through pregnancy. So I think that’s a brilliant thing.

24 fingers: Wow. Actually she could be our next guest.

Rachel: Yeah, she should. She’s like so knowledgeable of all of that, but can I have another one?

24 fingers: Yes.

Rachel: I’m a bit greedy, aren’t I? My other one is a thing called London Real, have you heard of that? It’s by a guy called Brian Rose and he’s developed a thing called the Digital Freedom Platform. He gets on these really interesting people, well, I find them interesting, to give you like the other side of what’s going on in the world, the other side of what the media are telling you and gives you a really different perspective on things.

I love stuff like that. I love outside the box, I love getting both sides. I question everything, so for me it’s brilliant and it’s a completely uncensored interview. So, you know, his interview is like three hours long and because he’s made up this platform, nobody can go in and like censor him or take it down. The stuff is very good, yes.

24 fingers: I’m going to go and check that, it sounds good. Give me one quote that defines your work ethic?

Rachel: I thought about this and I reckon it will be something like credit where credit’s due, you know. Because I think even if you make it to the top of wherever you’re trying to go, you can’t forget everybody who helped you there, because you never get there on your own. Anything in life, so I think you have to always remember to give credit to people that deserve it.

24 fingers: I’ll give a high five to Team 24 Fingers. What’s been the best part of your day? I know it’s early.

Rachel: Waking up. Just waking up and knowing that all my family woke up because so many people probably didn’t wake up today.

24 fingers: Love that.

Rachel: So that’s my best day, the best part.

24 fingers: Finally, anything to plug. Now is your chance to talk about the book in in more detail.

Rachel: Okay, so I want a plug my book, obviously, but I also want to plug the whole Crystal Companions Collection, which is just starting up with me and Angie. It is a whole collection of tools to help children with their wellbeing and their mental health. So the book is all about, it’s literally telling children that you have worries and they can feel like this or they can feel like that. But if you talk about them, it can make things so much better. I think that’s a really, really, really important thing, is to get children to talk.

There’s no harm in talking about how you feel. And I think so often we’re told you just shush, a brave face and all of that and I don’t think that’s right. So I want to plug the whole Crystal Companions Collection please and my book.

24 fingers: How can people get a copy?

Rachel: They go onto Angie’s Babyopathy website and go into shop and it’s there or they can contact me, they can. I don’t know how that works on Facebook and get a copy, or it’s available at Waterstones. They don’t stock it but you can order it.

24 fingers: We’ll put the links in the video but, Rachel, I just want to say congratulations and how lovely it was to speak to you, you’re really inspiring. I’m sure this is gonna be a huge success because kids need this and be a really kind of a practical way of parents helping their children through this collection. So well done again and I can’t wait to see the next bit of your journey.

Rachel: Oh, thanks so much. I was so nervous about doing this and now I’ve just really enjoyed it, so thanks, yeah.

24 fingers: Then my work here is done.

Rachel: Hurrah.

24 fingers: Take care, see you later.

Rachel: Bye, thank you, Emma.

Proof, as if it were actually needed, that social media really can live up to its name, came as Emma recently got a hefty dose of positive energy when she put our questionnaire to Facebook friend and transformational coach Cynthia Moore.

24 fingers: Hi Cynthia.

Cynthia: Hi, how are you?

24 fingers: I’m all right. Cynthia’s really brave and she’s going to be our, well not that brave, because my questions aren’t that difficult or tricky, but she’s going to be answering our 24 questions today. I met Cynthia through my Facebook group, 24 Piggies, that I run with the lovely Kathy Ennis, and I put a call out to say, I’ve got some gaps and slots for interviews and Cynthia kindly put her hand up so, thank you Cynthia, I really appreciate your time. Shall we begin?

Cynthia: Yes, let’s do it.

24 fingers: Okay so, without any preparation, what’s your favourite word?

Cynthia: Yes.

24 fingers: I like that. What gets you up in the morning?

Cynthia: The possibilities that a new day brings. I love that, I’m excited about that.

24 fingers: This is all becoming very positive Cynthia, this is inspiring at half past four, on what is it, Wednesday afternoon? This is amazing. Tell us, what do you truly, honestly think of social media?

Cynthia:  I used to love social media, but now, it feels so much more involved. And some of the platforms are starting to feel a little bit disingenuous, but I still like it, I still use it, in fact, I’m on it about 10 hours a day so.

24 fingers: Just the 10 then? Lightweight. Kindles or books?

Cynthia: Books but in reality it’s a Kindle.

24 fingers: Yeah, I can’t get to grips, I’ve got to feel the paper myself, I don’t feel like I’m truly relaxing, unless I’ve got a bit of paper between my hands in the bath. Plus I would never take my Kindle in the bath.

Cynthia: No, well this is it, I do love books, I prefer books, but the Kindle is convenient.

24 fingers: It’s easier. So, what do you think is the biggest challenge in your industry right now? You’re a coach aren’t you? What’s the industry looking like nowadays?

Cynthia: I really love what I do, but I think the biggest challenge, is around maintaining quality. Coaching is a real trendy hip word, the minute it gets bandied about a lot, and not always in the right way. There are standards, so coaching is not a regulated industry at the moment, but there are standards that coaches adhere to, and work towards, and not everyone is sort of aligned to that, so there’s a quality issue that I’d love to raise. Yeah.

24 fingers: You can see me nodding, by the fact that I could not agree with you more, and it’s something that Kathy and I talk about a lot, in terms of being qualified to give advice, whether you’ve done it yourself, whether you’ve got the experience, and whether you’ve got the kind of theory as well, and all of that combined, could be a really great package. But when you’re only picking little bits out of things, that you’ve read somewhere, or someone else has told you; I couldn’t agree with you more. People spend a lot of money on this stuff as well.

Cynthia: Yes, and I think it gets really confusing because a lot of people that call themselves coach, but they are actually consultants. But coaching is the hip, trendy word so it gets really confused, and people don’t get confused about what coaching actually brings them. Coaching doesn’t give them the answers, coaching helps them find the answers for themselves. 

24 fingers: You heard it here first, I love that definition Cynthia. What did you want to be when you were growing up?

Cynthia: Oh god, a million and one things but, definitely a historian, so that didn’t quite work out, and I was very inspired by Wall Street, and maybe Dallas, and I thought I could be be a big successful business woman, with big shoulder pads and a little briefcase.

24 fingers: Alexis Carrington?

Cynthia: Yeah, I don’t know what I’d be doing, but that was what I was wearing.

24 fingers: You’d just be walking around, you’d be having lunch with all your minions. So your favourite word was yes, could you use it in a sentence?

Cynthia: Yes, I can.

24 fingers: I knew you were going to say that. Can you make it rhyme?

Cynthia: Yes I can, let’s make a plan, hot off the press, let’s say yes.

24 fingers: My god, it goes on, this is brilliant, you’re the first person that’s done a four-line rhyme, that’s brilliant. What advice would you give to your younger self?

Cynthia: I would definitely tell my younger self to stop worrying so much, you know. It’s a waste of your time and your energy, you’re actually fine, your legs aren’t falling off, your arms aren’t falling off, you’re okay. Stop worrying. Just do the next thing.

24 fingers: Tell us the best thing anyone’s ever done for you?

Cynthia: Shown me this great kindness by observing something that I did, that was good about me, that I did well, and actually pointing it out, and saying it out loud. We’re so quick to always just criticise, and this person actually just pointed out, she observed something that was really positive, and pointed it out and to me, that opened up a whole new world of possibilities, it was amazing, the impact a split second comment had.

24 fingers: I love that. Kathy and our good friend Myra, we were talking yesterday about the power of women working or collaborating together, where you can genuinely say to the other person, “do you know what, you’re amazing at that, I really admire that about you”, rather than that constant kind of comparison or kind of bitching behind the scenes. When you’ve got that true genuine, admiration, for someone else’s qualities yes, tell them, because it makes such a difference. As you say, we’re so quick to either criticise ourselves, or kind of judge others that when you don’t do that, like you know, life’s great isn’t it?

Cynthia: Absolutely. It just made, at the time, it just made me realise, and this is the impact that we can all have on someone else, what you are actually capable of, which is amazing, yeah.

24 fingers: Well I’m gonna kick off then by saying, I think your Zoom background’s brilliant, and I like your positivity, so there’s two, that’s covered for me for today and tomorrow. You might not have had it yet, but tell us what’s been your career-defining moment?

Cynthia: Oh that’s a tricky one, I’m not sure it’s happened yet. I had a corporate career for many years, and I did well with that, you know, it was good. It was hard work, and I didn’t feel like it was the right thing for me, in terms of making the impact that I wanted to make. And we actually, my husband and I, we actually ended up selling everything we owned, we quit our corporate careers, and we actually travelled around Europe for a little while.

In fact, that’s where we were, that’s what we were doing in March when, you know, things changed, so now we’re back in the UK. But really I think, for me, the big pivotal moment was when I finally took the plunge and started my own business, working for myself.

24 fingers: Well watch this space about what comes next, but I love that story, and about actually going, do you know what I’m not making a big enough impact, in what I’m doing, I’m not serving enough people actually, or I wanna change, so I really admire your bravery there. Tell us, if you won a big award of some kind, who would you thank?

Cynthia: I’d have to thank my husband, for being my absolute rock. I know, he’s a really good guy and he really works, he’ll do anything to help me, so he’s an amazing support, I’m really lucky there. I would also thank my parents, they spent years and years and years working really hard, to give me and my brother, the best opportunities possible, they wanted a different life for us and  that was their real goal, and they did that, so that was awesome. And my Aunty as well, who instilled in me a real sense of can do and independence. Yeah.

24 fingers: Can you give us a time saver of the day? Is there something that you use to manage your time?

Cynthia: There’s a few things actually, but the biggest thing you can do to help yourself, no matter what theoretical techniques you’d like to use, is to actually focus on what you can do right now and drop all the busy thoughts of what you should be doing, and all this, drop all the busy thinking, and do what you actually can do now.

24 fingers: Well that’s okay, we’ll have to adopt that one. Where do you see your industry in 24 months, I know we spoke about more regulation and more quality, do you see that changing in the next two years?

Cynthia: I don’t realistically, just because it hasn’t for many years, so realistically, I’m not sure that that will change, but what I do see, and this is really exciting, is that there’s a real global movement of using coaching to raise awareness, person by person, and company by company.

I was listening to someone speak this last week, and what she was saying is we’ve tried governments, the religious institutions have lost their clout, if you like. What we see is really, where we can make the change, raise the awareness in companies and in people, so there’s a real movement of levelling up that way. Which I think is exciting.

24 fingers: Interesting. Where were you 24 months ago?

Cynthia: So, this time of year, is actually my parents’ birthday, and I’m from the Netherlands, originally, so I was in the Netherlands, two years ago. I was not working, and we were travelling mostly, so that was it.

24 fingers: Tell us an interesting fact about your company?

Cynthia: I find it really hard to look at myself and my business as a company, because it feels more like a cool place I hang out, with people I care about. I love spending time in it as well so, you know, I am excited when I get up in the morning and much to my husband’s annoyance, I find it hard to stop in the evenings because I’m just loving it.  

24 fingers: What’s an interesting fact about you?

Cynthia: I think, I don’t know, one of the most interesting things is just that, we took that leap, to really simplify our lives, and give up all, because you know, we didn’t have children, we had two careers, we gave it all up, and we just really stripped everything out of our lives, that wasn’t really essential to us. So, the things that turned out were important to us, was going out for the odd cup of coffee, with a bit of cake and, other than that, I think life is good you know, you don’t need a lot to be happy.

24 fingers: Me and my son live really simply and we don’t need a lot of stuff, do you know what I mean? And it takes the pressure off.  So if you can have a 24-minute Skype chat with anybody, or Zoom call, I might change that question now, who would it be?

Cynthia: That’s a tricky one, I think professionally, right now, it would be Michael Neill. I’m really interested in what he says and how he says it, he’s an amazing coach, so I’d love to have 24 minutes with him, and in fact, I’m pretty sure, I will have a lot more time than that in the future, because it’s one of my goals. Personally, I’m intrigued by Kate Middleton, I’d love to have a 24-minute conversation with her.

24 fingers: Really, what are you intrigued about?

Cynthia: Well, I think that she comes across so perfect. I don’t know if you feel that, she always looks amazing.

24 fingers: Very poised.

Cynthia: I really want to just talk to her because, it must feel like a lot of pressure in the public eye, in this strange role in the Royal family, and I would love to know how she copes and manages with that.

24 fingers: You might get her on a call, and she might get completely drunk and go: “this is how I cope”. I doubt it, but she might. What is one word you’d like people to describe you with?

Cynthia: Oh that’s tricky. Impactful, that’s one of my key drivers, making a positive impact so, I would have to say impactful.

24 fingers: Million percent agree with that. Would you mind taking a selfie for us, if you smile, I will take a screen grab? Brilliant, done. What’s your favourite Twitter handle, or social media campaign? Have you got somebody that you like to follow, or somebody that you recommend we all follow?

Cynthia: I really like the Be Kind Twitter hashtag campaign that goes on. I do wonder you know, if we’ve collectively as a society, have forgotten what that really means. Where we’re a bit wrapped up in ourselves, and being kind a real difficult thing, and especially in this time, you can see it all around, there’s so much opinion and judgement, that there’s no conversation possible, so I think the Be Kind campaign, is one that I wholeheartedly support. 

24 fingers: Because for me, it’s that person to person isn’t it? It’s that human, heart to heart bonds, that’s how we make a difference, and then that kind of ripples out. What’s one quote that defines your work ethic?

Cynthia: I think it has to be the one that I’ve got plastered all over my front page on my website, which is that your mind is the biggest obstacle you ever have to overcome, and once you overcome that, you can do anything. By Les Brown, I believe.

24 fingers: I was talking to again, Myra, I was talking to her about shifting mindset and, I’ve made some changes in my life fairly recently, that I’d never thought was possible, and it only took one little switch in the brain, to go no, actually, you don’t need to think that, and you don’t need to behave like that.

Suddenly life’s like, all right okay, and that was like, 10, 20,30,40-year habits that have been ingrained, so again, I agree. I literally agree with everything you’ve said on this call, Cynthia. We’ll have to do a sequel, and find out more that we agree on. So, what’s been the best part of your day so far?

Cynthia: Well actually this, is really good fun.

24 fingers: Thank you.

Cynthia: I love all the questions, this is awesome, I absolutely enjoy this, and also before this, I had an awesome client call with a great lady and that was awesome as well, so yeah.

24 fingers: Thank you very much. Finally, anything to plug?

Cynthia: I think what I would say on that actually is, I’ve spent the last two months or so, doing a lot of pro bono work with small businesses and entrepreneurs to try and keep the lights on, keep the motivation and the momentum going, keep them in the game, keep their heads in the game, and now, it feels like we can sort of see the light at the need of tunnel, whether that’s a real light or just, or not, I don’t know, but people are starting to look ahead again, which is exciting.

A lot of people, I’ve noticed, have used this time of enforced quiet, to be inspired with ideas, having a lot less noise in their heads, to come up with some really great ideas, and I’ve started working with people on creating, making those ideas a reality and creating whatever it is that they want. So if anyone is interested, if anyone has had some ideas like this, or any inspiration and you kind of want to get started with it, but maybe you’re getting in your own way, or you think you can’t, get in touch, let’s have a chat. No strings attached at all, let’s just have a chat and explore it and we’ll see what we can do.

24 fingers: How do people find you Cynthia?

Cynthia: I am on Facebook, I have my website, I’m also on Instagram. You can contact me on all those channels, I have e-mail facilities, message facilities on the website, as well as Facebook Messenger on the website, and on Facebook and messaging on Instagram as well.

24 fingers: I think we’ve got everything covered for you, which every good coach should. So, thank you Cynthia, it’s an absolute pleasure, and I’ve learned a lot on this call from you. Thank you very much and you’ve definitely inspired me.

Cynthia: Thank you so much for having me Emma, I’ve really enjoyed it, thank you.

Emma kicked off our latest 24 question series by getting to the bottom of a curious naming mystery when she chatted to Lisa Appadurai of The Wellbeing Musketeers, which she runs with her partner Tracey Bloss. All for one and one for all! 

24 fingers: For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Emma Goode of social media agency 24 fingers, and today I’m joined by the lovely Lisa Christmas LongSausage, and I’m sure she’ll be able to tell us why she’s called that on Facebook, because I promise you that isn’t her real name. How are you today Lisa, are you okay?

Lisa: Hi Emma I’m fine thank you. 

24 fingers: You can tell us that now actually. I usually start with what’s your favourite word but feel free to share. 

Lisa: I was rather inebriated one evening watching TV and watching the credits roll on the end of a programme. Somebody’s name rolled past whose surname was Christmas, I made the chance remark that I’d love to be called Christmas. The LongSausage part, I’ve no idea where that came from, I think it got tagged on that same evening. That was 10, 11 years ago and just kind of stuck really… 

24 fingers: I love it. Lisa, what’s your favourite word?

Lisa: My favourite word, for this year anyway, is progress. It stems from my holiday I had just before lockdown, which I took as an opportunity to try and think about what I was going to do this year, how things were a bit up in the air in a few areas and I needed to formulate a plan while I was on holiday, think about the future.

I had also coincidentally managed to snap a beloved silver ring I’d been wearing for years and decided to replace it. While browsing in a shop on holiday I was looking at some lovely jewellery and there was this pretty little ring with the word progress written on it in the Thai language. It just seemed so appropriate so I thought “d’you know, I’m going to have that as it sums up what I’m thinking about at the moment”. 

24 fingers: Life’s too short, buy the ring: that’s my motto. What gets you up in the morning?

Lisa: My filter coffee and my daily gym work out – or at the moment my home gym workout. I can’t do without either of those. 

24 fingers: What do you honestly, truly think of social media?

Lisa: I’m loving social media for the fact I’ve got lots of friends and family in far-flung countries so it’s amazing for being able to keep in touch and see birthdays and photos and the like going on. I’m also slightly addicted to it at the moment as for the past few weeks I’ve been working from home a bit more, so I’ve had more time to scroll, but I’m not loving the noise you get from social media. Being bombarded with endless rubbish and adverts, and the amount of quite nasty comments in different groups. People are on quite a short fuse. 

24 fingers: Keyboard warriors I believe they’re called. Kindles or books?

Lisa: Books, definitely for the smell and feel of them. 

24 fingers: 100%. What do you feel is the biggest challenge your industry is facing right now?

Lisa: It’s not just a “right now” thing, I think it’s been for a long time, it’s just changing people’s perceptions. People come with the idea they want a diet plan or a pill or some funny green powder to drink and suddenly they’re going to be thin and beautiful and feel wonderful. That’s not how we work, personally. It’s trying to get them to see there’s a different way and one that can be successful for them in the long-term. 

24 fingers: I have to say I’m a convert of funny green powders, but I absolutely agree with you, it’s got to be a long-term solution. I’m very much “I want fixes  right here right now” and get very frustrated when I haven’t achieved my goals tomorrow. I phone my coaches up and say “I’ve done X,Y,Z and want it to happen now” and they say “slow down, there’s been decades of abuse”.

Lisa: I think it’s wishful thinking for people, and I’m like that myself. I hope if I try something new that it’s going to happen instantly but I know in my heart and head I’ve learned probably that it’s going to take a while. 

24 fingers: What did you want to be growing up?

Lisa: I wanted to be a veterinary nurse, and I became one so I was very lucky. 

24 fingers: So what led to you founding The Wellbeing Musketeers?

Lisa: I had a long passion for health and fitness and nutrition since the age of about 17. I qualified as a fitness instructor and massage therapist, and then about 10 or 11 years ago I saw an advertisement for an open event for a new scheme being set up in Southend. I went along and chatted to some of the management of that new team and got an application form, and was one of the lucky ones to get a job as a health and wellbeing practitioner and it led on to this. 

24 fingers: Now you’re favourite word was progress: can you use it in a sentence?

Lisa: Yes, though this isn’t me, it’s George Bernard Shaw. He said “progress is impossible without change and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything”. I think it’s very apt for the type of work I do. 

24 fingers: It’s interesting about mind shifts – I’ve had a few lately and the difference to how I used to think – just take one thing and suddenly it was like a switch going off in my brain. Now, can you make it rhyme?

Lisa: Yes and this is also appropriate: it’s progress, don’t regress. 

24 fingers: Very good. I’m going to steal that one. What advice would you give to your younger self?

Lisa: I would tell myself not to worry about what other people think of me, their opinions of me, know I can be confident and bold enough to speak my mind, as long as I’m not horrible. Be a bit more bold, really. I was a bit of a frightened rabbit growing up. 

24 fingers: What’s the best thing anyone’s ever done for you?

Lisa: Bought me a lovely pair of Gore-Tex running gloves, which were very unglamorous, but without me saying anything, he noticed how cold my hands got when we went for a run together. Then out of nowhere, he produced these lovely gloves which back in the day – this was quite a few years ago – were actually very expensive.  I was quite overwhelmed that someone had actually noticed without me saying anything and I’ve still got them to this day. I still wear them in the winter. 

24 fingers: If you won a big award of some kind, who would you thank?

Lisa: My teachers at school, first and foremost, because they wrote me off. I was off sick quite a lot at school and had glandular fever a couple of times, and my teachers told my parents I wouldn’t pass my exams or get anywhere in life and I feel I’ve proved them wrong.  I’d also thank my lovely clients I’ve seen over the years. They’ve been amazing on the whole and trusted me with a lot of their woes, and they didn’t know me from Adam when they first met me, but they really made me feel quite humble and grateful that I was able to help them. 

24 fingers: You might not have had it yet, but what’s been your career-defining moment so far?

Lisa: It was when somebody told me that I’d changed her life. She did that herself and may well have done it without my help, but she said that to me and that was wonderful – it made it all worthwhile. 

24 fingers: You obviously gave her the tools to change her life.

Lisa: I hopefully planted a seed there somewhere. 

24 fingers: Definitely. It germinated. I know you’re up early, can you give us a timesaver for the day? 

Lisa: I always put my makeup on and get dressed while the coffee’s brewing, so I have to be quick about it. I also always make sure if I’m going to be out at lunchtime then I prep it the night before. It’s a life-long habit. 

24 fingers: Amazing. You’re a better woman than me. Where do you see your industry in 24 months?

Lisa: Well it’s going to be growing I think, because people are going to be looking to better themselves health-wise and so on, but I’d like to see more people embracing long-term change. Moving away from a visit to the doctors to get more pills, when perhaps other changes they could make might make an improvement for them, and just look to the future and embrace the fact that they can make change if they’re patient, and not throw it all away if it doesn’t work in the first few minutes. 

24 fingers: I will remember that. Where were you 24 months ago?

Lisa: I was still employed doing a similar health role and very happily so. I had a wonderful small team of colleagues to work with and a wonderful  client base too, so I’m very grateful for that. At the time I was thinking of striking out on my own at some point in the future but it was never really a serious thought I don’t think at that point. 

24 fingers: And yet you did it. What’s an interesting fact about The Wellbeing Musketeers?

Lisa: I don’t know if it’s interesting but it is a fact. Tracey and I could be any one of our clients. We’re both in our fifties now, Tracey’s a single mum of five and a nanna as well, I’ve had mental health issues over the years, I’ve had problems with food. So we really can relate to the struggles our clients have, we’re not just sitting in a higher position preaching at people and saying “well you should be like us”, because we understand how time-consuming these things can be to sort out and the damage you can do mentally as well as physically. 

24 fingers: I don’t think there’s anything better than talking to someone who listens and gets it, rather than judging. I think that’s a huge thing. I know the people I’ve worked with in the past have been empathetic and not tried to rush me. 

Lisa: We try to make our client experience really chilled out. We don’t wear a uniform or even wear a T-shirt with our logo, anything that would make us stand out as an official kind of person.  We’re not medical people, we’re mates you have a chat but maybe we’ve got more knowledge in a certain area that benefits the client. 

24 fingers: Brilliant. If you had a 24-minute Skype chat with anyone who would it be?

Lisa: It would be my grandma, who passed away when I was 13 and my grandad, who unfortunately I never got to meet. 

24 fingers: What’s one word you’d like people to describe you with?

Lisa: I’d like to be known as kind. I hope I am, most of the time. 

24 fingers: Would you mind taking a selfie?

Lisa: Hair and eyebrows – not good at the moment!

24 fingers: What’s your favourite social media campaign or group you follow?

Lisa: I follow and I’m part of the Myprotein Facebook community. I probably shouldn’t be plugging a supplements company, but it’s one I buy from and I was invited to join their VIP community and it’s absolutely wonderful. I’ve made what I feel are really good friends, though I’ve not met any of them. Everyone’s super-supportive. I don’t understand Twitter or Instagram I’m afraid, I’m a bit of a dinosaur. 

24 fingers: Twitter’s the best. What’s one quote sums that defines your work ethic?

Lisa: I saw this online, I don’t know who it’s from but it sums things up for me. It’s: If you have a passion for what you do, regardless of status or income, you’re a winner in life. I find that to be true – I really love what I do. If I could afford to do it for free I would, but sadly I can’t. 

24 fingers: Not yet. What’s been the best part of your day?

Lisa: Today’s been the workout this morning and later on it will be putting on my pyjamas as I’m not going out again. 

24 fingers: I’m envious now you can put your pyjamas on at 5 o’clock. Finally, anything to plug?

Lisa: Just us, Tracey and myself as The Wellbeing Musketeers. If you want to make a lifestyle change, and have been thinking about it for ages or you’re trying lots of different things that aren’t working, we can help you. We want you to feel empowered and confident and help to improve your current and future health. This isn’t about looks as much as your actual state of health and how you can manage it better and avoid developing long-term conditions.  

24 fingers: How can people find you?

Lisa: They can find us through Facebook. No website as yet but hopefully in the pipeline before too long. 

24 fingers: Talk to me about that. Thanks very much Lisa, I really enjoyed our chat. Inspiring. Carry on the good work. 

Lisa: I will, thank you. 

Proof that you can be busy and still enjoy yourself came when Emma had two interviews in one day. Not only did it keep her off her phone, she also immersed herself in positive vibes by chatting to transformational relationship coach John Kenny.

24 fingers: Hi, John.

John: Hi Emma, how are you?

24 fingers: I’m okay, thank you very much. So, shall we kick off? What’s your favourite word?

John: I have difficulty with this. There’s a word I use a lot, when I just want something to say, which is badger. It is something I got from Eddie Izzard many years ago. I just go “ahh, badger”. But, then I thought “smidgen”, I like smidgen, it’s a good word. 

24 fingers: What gets you up in the morning?

John: My alarm. Sunshine. I like daylight. That gets me up. I don’t have problems getting up in the morning. I’ve got a routine, I just like to get out of bed, get myself my protein shake and sit in the garden when the sun’s nice and just chill a little bit.

24 fingers: I can tell, you’re a morning person. So, what do you truly, honestly, think of social media? Go on, be honest.

John: It’s balance. These are balanced scales. I think some of it’s awful and some of it’s really good.

24 fingers: Much like life.

John: Yeah, it is very much like a relationship and relationships in general. Some of it can be really damaging but some of it can be really positive. For keeping in touch with people, and business-wise, I think it’s quite good. But I think obviously, there’s a lot of toxicity, abuse and stuff that also goes on, which is terrible. I think they need to get a grip of a lot more. But yeah, I think it’s like everything in life, it has its good and its bad stuff.

24 fingers: A game of two halves, as they say. Kindles or books?

John: Kindles.

24 fingers: Really?

John: Yeah, I like to get hold of my phone and just read, rather than pick up a book nowadays. Obviously it’s a lot easier to mark books I like, you know, when you’ve got your little things on here. I much prefer just to pick my phone up and have a little read of it there.

24 fingers: I’m the complete opposite. I like books all the way. What do you think is the biggest challenge to your industry right now? I was talking to a coaching person two days ago and she said something that really hit home. It’d be interesting to see what you think. 

John: At the moment, there are a lot of people who are unsure about what they want to do. I don’t think there’s a lot of people out there looking for coaching until they get a little bit more stable and think about what they want. I think it’s about being taken seriously, some of, or a lot of the time because coaching isn’t a profession that is regulated. I speak to a lot of coaches that I wouldn’t speak to myself, as a coach, because they don’t have the background. They’re trying to sell people their personal experiences and I find that quite difficult to kind of stomach sometimes. 

24 fingers: She was also saying that coaching is an unregulated industry. The quality barometer can be very varied and I’ve seen that for myself, personally. Interesting that you say that too.

John: I’ve had quite a few clients come to me and say, “I’ve started talking to this person and they opened me up on this” and I’ve said, “Oh no we don’t do that.” Why get someone into that space in the first place, where then you say, “Oh no, you need to talk to someone else about that”? That’s not what I do.

I can just tell you how to do this. I think it’s okay if you’ve got something like a property coach or, some other where they say: “this is how you buy and sell houses” or “this is how you can do this and this is how you can do that”, and have a kind of a very scheduled structure in place. You could sell that, from your personal experience, because you know what works.

24 fingers: Emotion is different, isn’t it? It’s people’s lives.

John: Yes, but with most coaching, whether you call yourself a life coach or not, it has a tendency to revolve around life. So, it would be great if you had some kind of certification to prove that you at least understand the process of what coaching is all about.

24 fingers: Million percent. So did you want to be a coach when you were growing up?

John: No. I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was growing up. I don’t even think I had any career advice or anything like that when I was at school, I don’t remember doing it. I didn’t do any work experience. I had no idea. I was very lucky when I found athletics. I wanted to be an athlete for about 10 years, but then when that didn’t pay off, I had no idea what to do. Then just through trial and error really, I got really interested in psychology and that kind of led me on this path. So, it took me to my early thirties before I started on this journey. 

24 fingers: Interesting, and you just answered my next question. So your favourite word, let’s use smidgen. Can you use it in a sentence?

John: I like to put a smidgen of spice in my food.

24 fingers: Okay, now can you make it rhyme?

John: I might put a smidgen of spice on my pigeon. How about that?

24 fingers: Well done, John, well done. What advice would you give to your younger self?

John: Stretch. Depending how old he was, really. So definitely stretch, keep yourself supple. It’ll do you a world of good when you get older. And, get help, and it’s not your fault.

24 fingers: Very good. Understand that. What’s the best thing anyone’s ever done for you?

John: I think probably when I got turned on to coaching really. When I met a coach and they told me that I can change my story, and that led me on to the journey where I completely turned my own life around. So, I would say that’s probably the best thing anyone’s ever done for me, just say: “you can change this and you can be happy”.

24 fingers: Amazing. What’s been your career defining moment? You might not have had it yet.

John: When you get positive feedback, I mean that’s the goosebumpy stuff, I get. I did a documentary, I would imagine would be the thing that I’m most proud of at the moment.

24 fingers: So, you said that you were a morning person.  Can you give us a time saver of the day?

John: Don’t spend so much time on that (mobile phone). Turn it off. 

24 fingers: We have a rule at home that we don’t have phones on after seven. My son came up with that rule, which is quite unusual. “No mum, stop messaging, be off your phone.” That really does help. 

John: I don’t take that advice, by the way. I have a tendency to pick up my phone. I work until nine most evenings, so I have mine on until nine, at least. But yes, I do tell myself, “you need to put this thing down, because you’re wasting your own time”.

24 fingers: If you won a big award of some kind, who would you thank?

John: What would my award be for?

24 fingers: Anything. Which one of your many achievements, John?

John: I would just say, I think it would be everybody, wouldn’t it?  I’d thank my parents for turning me into the person, or allowing me to be the person I am today. Obviously definitely my wife, friends, and probably my coaches, actually. The coaches I’ve had. My athletics coach, unfortunately he’s passed away now. Definitely would thank him and the coaches that have helped me to find my way in this profession. 

24 fingers: Genuinely, I never used to have a coach before and over the last 18 months, I’ve had a few. The difference it makes to my life, to have a coach, is just incredible. Because I think we’re all guilty of only seeing our limitations and a coach can really help to broaden your ambition, broaden your horizons, but then metaphorically give you that security blanket and a bit of a comfort factor, I think.

John: Yeah.

24 fingers: Someone’s got my back and they’re going to guide me through the process. They’re not going to do the process for me, but they’re there. The difference it’s made, in terms of what I can achieve, but also just believing in myself, is hugely incredible.

John: I would definitely add, I’d add my supervisor for my counselling, because she really, championed me really, and led me to kind of hold some kind of self belief about I was capable of what I was doing. She would definitely get a thank you.

24 fingers: I did a post yesterday on LinkedIn about the fact I was really scared of something last year and I got out of my own way out of my comfort zone. It’s the best thing that I did, and it’s the highlight of my week that I do now. If I’d have said no, if I’d have listened to that inner voice, I would never be doing what I’m doing now. 

So, where do you see yourself and your company in 24 months?

John: I’ve got this idea in my head, which I won’t share with you now because it’s a little bit complicated. I’d like to be spreading the word of interpersonal relationship coaching not just around the UK but around the world. I think the message that I’ve got is massively important for people to hear. In a couple of years time, I’d like to be doing a lot more speaking and spreading the philosophy that I’ve got behind my coaching.

24 fingers: Go John! Where were you 24 months ago? Physically or metaphorically, whatever you prefer.

John: I was actually in Turkey, physically, two years ago. The business was probably not anywhere. I probably still hadn’t got my mojo together at that point, or my niche, I hadn’t kind of focused on where I wanted to get to. So, I was still figuring it all out then.

24 fingers: What’s an interesting fact about you?

John: That I used to be an international athlete.

24 fingers: In what field?

John: Sprinting. I was a sprinter, yes. I ran for Great Britain a few times when I was younger.

24 fingers: I definitely am not a sprinter. 

John: I’m definitely not a runner. 

24 fingers: If you could have a 24-minute Skype chat with anybody, living or dead, who would it be?

John: Jesus. I’d just like to know who he was. What his message was, what the reality of the situation was.

24 fingers: Interesting. What’s one word you’d like people to describe you with?

John: Empathetic.

24 fingers: Hugely important. Would you mind taking a selfie for us? Brilliant, done. What’s your favourite Twitter handle, social media campaign, if you’ve got one? You must do, because you’re on your phone a lot.

John: I don’t actually, no. I’m not a massive social media follower. I put my stuff out there and I follow a few other people and you know, if something sort of pops up that I like the look of, I’ll like it, follow it, share it, whatever. But no, I don’t have a favourite thing.

24 fingers: Someone’s got to convince John. This is your challenge for the year. What’s one quote that defines your work ethic?

John: My favourite quote would be from Carl Bard which is: “although we cannot make a new beginning, we can start now to make a brand new ending”. Something like that.

24 fingers: I get that. What’s been the best part of your day?

John: So far today? Obviously talking to you and, when I did my cycling session this morning, my heart rate stayed really low, so I must be getting fitter.

24 fingers: Good. So you’re winning all round. Finally, anything to plug?

John: Loads of stuff. Obviously there’s my coaching, if anyone’s interested in coaching they can contact me for a complimentary consultation. I’ve actually just put together, with the help of a few other people, a membership site, so if you would like to know a little bit more about coaching, want to get involved in coaching, or not sure if you want a coach of your own at the moment, my membership site has dozens of downloadable coaching tools, PDFs you can have. 

I’ve got some audio and video programmes on there. I’m going be doing some live Q&A stuff. So if you are in the market for a bit of coaching but don’t know if you can afford one, or not sure if that’s the right thing for you and you want to try it, then the membership site is a really good way to start. I’m running a special offer on that one at the moment, for just £39 a month.

24 fingers: Amazing. So, before I leave you, can you give us some advice, for anybody that’s in lockdown with somebody that’s driving them insane and they’re confined in a space, you know, in a physical space, but also a metaphorical space with somebody that they’re struggling with to get a good relationship?

John: Luckily enough, from next week you’ll be able to escape a little bit more. So, make sure you find some time for yourself so that you’re not under that constant pressure of wherever you feel you are, suffocation or disempowerment. But maybe the most important advice I give generally, would be that nothing is personal. 

No matter how someone is treating you, they’re doing it for their own gain and for their own needs. You don’t need to feel like a victim, or that they’re aiming it at you, it’s just that they’re trying to achieve something, and if you can take a step out of feeling like a victim, or if you can take a step out of taking it personally, then that’ll relieve a lot of pressure on you to be able to figure out why are they doing what they’re doing, what are they trying to achieve from that, and whether you’re going to allow that to happen anymore. 

Are you going to keep feeding them? If they are doing that, then I would suggest it’s quite a toxic and unhealthy relationship and as soon as you can you need to sort that out.

24 fingers: Thank you very much, John. That’s really helpful. Great as ever talking to you. Wishing you health, happiness, and safety through all of this.

John: Thank you very much and the same to you. Take care and be good to yourself.